On Social Issues

The loss of liberty is a far greater evil than the loss of life. The religious speak of the freedom to worship as they wish and care for nothing other than their own selfish ends. Clearly, the faithful are amoral doublethinkers.

1 Like

Faith is Doublethink,
Gobbledygook is Doublespeak.

Clearly, no-one is seriously thinking of taking the right to gun ownership of American citizens from them like the Chinese government does its citizens.

A false argument is that the Australian government took guns away from its citizens and nothing happened. The Australian government banned assault rifles and that is all.

1 Like

Liberty makes everything clear.

1 Like

Ah, no a whole lot happened, over a million weapons were handed in to the police and destroyed in the amnesties that followed. A lot of would be killers, fruitcakes and ne’er do wells didn’t get to own guns anymore. An injustice I know.
Rat shooters in Queensland complained that they would have to use shotguns or single shot high powered rifles instead of spraying the whole barn with hundreds of full metal jacket rounds.

" A person must have a firearm licence to possess or use a firearm. Licence holders must demonstrate a “genuine reason” (which does not include self-defence) for holding a firearm licence and must not be a “prohibited person”. All firearms must be registered by serial number to the owner, who must also hold a firearms licence.

In addition all approved firearms must be kept in an approved gun safe under lock and key at all times when not in use. The Police may enter and inspect your premises at any time to ascertain that the guns and ammunition are kept according to the regulations. This includes air rifles and BB guns.

Automatic or semi automatic firearms, the equipment to convert single shot weapons to semi or fully automatic are absolutely prohibited.

Because owning any firearm is prohibitively expensive (cost of the weapon, cost of medicals, references, gun safe, annual licensing, demonstrating need) there are not that many in the hands of criminals in Australia (because its hard to break into a gun safe) and those that are, are mainly used on each other. (not a bad thing IMHO)

There have been NO school shootings in Australia or mass shootings (4 or more victims) this year. There have been 130 so far in the U.S.

Anyone interested in this subject should have a read. Gun laws of Australia - Wikipedia

Now Australia, the UK and most of Europe are not the US. A combination of astute product marketing, managed media fueled hysteria and a fear of their own government has created a country where manly men cart high powered killing machines around in full view of children. That is ok. It is your country, your children, your “right” to be armed in bed in case your home is invaded by hordes of snarling, armed, criminals, government agents or commies.

Statistically It is much more likely you will wave bye bye to your loved ones at 8 in the morning and you will be indentifying them in a morgue later that afternoon.

That is your laws, your country your rights, and most gun owners are kinda sensible.

We just decided not to take that chance.

(heavily edited to avoid outrage)


This is a subjective opinion, you should learn to offer such opinions in that context and not as absolute claims. Of course one could argue that loss of liberty is akin to loss of life, since this bodily autonomy is an essential component of it, however since I don’t believe I can experience loss of my life, I might struggle to live even under those circumstances. Indeed there is plenty of evidence that many people have done just this.

Some of them do yes, but you are again making what appears to be an absolute claim, and thus it appears to be obviously false, since not all religious people do this.

Oh dear…why do you enjoy making the grand gesture as if you want to provoke, rather than qualifying remarks as if you want to share something you believe to be the case? It is pretty obvious that a vast amount of people hold religious beliefs and many of them are far from amoral, the Orwellian reference would be better aimed at religions than the religious I think, as all of us carry contradictions or complex dichotomies at some point.

Actually faith in the religious sense is strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof. Can we assume you meant religious faith, only you failed to specify?

No one, are you sure? Also private citizens in China can get hunting licences and own guns for that purpose, though they cannot otherwise own or carry firearms.

No that is not a false argument, in fact the statement is true, as they took 30% of privately owned firearms away, and introduced very strict laws limiting private gun ownership:

“Following several high-profile killing sprees, the federal government coordinated more restrictive firearms legislation with all state governments. Gun laws were largely aligned in 1996 by the National Firearms Agreement. In two federally funded gun buybacks and voluntary surrenders and State Governments’ gun amnesties before and after the Port Arthur Massacre, more than a million firearms were collected and destroyed, possibly a third of the national stock.”

Australia has very strict gun ownership laws, not unlike the UK.

"A person must have a firearm licence to possess or use a firearm. Licence holders must demonstrate a “genuine reason” (which does not include self-defence) for holding a firearm licence and must not be a “prohibited person”.

Nothing about that claim is clear, are you practising for a life as a tabloid journalist, reeling off ever more sensational and dubious or disingenuous claims?


I am an American and a gun owner . . . although I agree with your basic logic that society would be a much, much better place if guns would disappear.

For instance, the U.K. has almost 70 million people, and it seems that there were only about 64 total gun deaths for the whole year of 2017 . . . and that includes suicides in the military and the police.

Meanwhile, we had almost as many deaths in just one mass shooting (59 dead in Las Vegas during a mass shooting at a music concert). To put this in perspective, the U.S. had 54 killed (initially) in the 2nd Battle of Fallujah.

So I agree that the American gun culture (which I am a part of) is awful, uncivilized, and has more to do with the gun lobby profiteering from American paranoia, racism, and religious bigotry.

I would also like to suggest another idea that is relevant to the American gun culture.

We’ve heard of the concept of “toxic masculinity” which leads to domestic violence, misogyny, and the creation of “incels.” I–for example–believe in an appropriate level of masculinity. I’ll hold a door open for a woman, I like to pick up the check on a date, I like the idea of coming home from work and having the woman in my life rub my shoulders and having dinner ready . . . which is a million miles away from the toxic masculinity that requires domestic violence, sexism, and sexual entitlement.

In a like manner, I want to coin an idea called “toxic nationalism.” I’m patriotic to the point of believing in my country’s ideals and constitution . . . but I want to believe that I’m a human being first and an American second.

Toxic nationalism is the idea that we get to be Americans at the expense of the rest of the world, and that we are entitled to take resources from everywhere else. We believe we are entitled to use unrestrained capitalism to have an ostentatious lifestyle at everyone else’s expense. Global warming from the greenhouse gases emited by our country is an example of this.

Toxic naionalism seems to be a foundation of our gun culture, as guns are about “protecting what’s ours” from criminals, immigrants, and members of religions that we don’t like (such as Islam), and making sure that we greedily hoard resources.

In fairness to the gun enthusiasts, the Japanese had a plan to invade the Mainland United States after Pearl Harbor, and Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto supposedly said: "If we invade the American mainland, there will be a rifle behind ever blade of grass . . . ", so the invasion was scrapped.

Still . . . this seems a slim excuse to justify millions of AR-15 and AK-47 assault rifles in the hands of anyone who wants them. It also seems like a fucking bullshit excuse to justify the hundreds of mass shootings that produce more bodies than a battle in a full-fledged war.

So, the gun culture is a product of toxic nationalism, selfish greed, religious paranoia, and bigotry.

As for why I have guns?

I was a relief worker with the Red Cross after Hurricane Andrew, and I saw how quickly people devolved into predatory animals.

My guns are there to give me parity.

I know this seems hypocritical and self-serving, but so be it. I will not allow myself or my loved ones to be preyed upon in a crisis.

And by preyed, I don’t care about property. If they want to steal my television, then go ahead.

My guns are for the Ted Bundys, the John Wayne Gacys, and the Jeffrey Dahmers. My guns are for gang members who need to be initiated by committing a homicide. My guns are for the addicts who do flakka and want to eat me.


Maybe I am a hypocrite, but you guys might feel the same way if you’ve seen what I’ve seen.


@Kevin_Levites, toxic nationalism is a really interesting concept. I think you’re spot on about it.
I would add, however, that, imo, there are additional factors which increase gun violence in the U.S.

  1. Health care is lacking. This includes mental health care.
  2. The mind-your-own-business attitude has nearly eliminated the attention to troubled folks that used to be provided by the community.
  3. The have / have not gap is huge, combine that with an entitlement mind-set and all hell breaks loose. (I know this seems self contradictory but the entitlement I’m talking about is the “I deserve a life of leisure because I breathe sort.)
  4. Inequality based on skin color, heritage, sex, sexuality, religion (or lack there of), age, etc.
  5. Rampant bigotry
  6. The NRA
    The list is probably longer…these were the ones off the top of my head.

Good post, and no I don’t believe you’re being a hypocrite at all, one of the tragedies of lax gun laws is it forces ordinary people to consider owning a gun out of fear of that guns are so prevalent they are ubiquitous among criminals. I don’t judge people who take that precaution, but who wish it were not so.


That seems pretty fatalistic. Your liberty/freedom/etc can be regained, your life can not.


Thank you for seeing my point.

1 Like

What price liberty? Life itself.

I am sick and tired of killing myself over these things.

1 Like

What if I don’t believe in Evil?


Do you need a referral to a suicide hotline?

1 Like

As am I. My case is different than yours, however. I don’t keep guns for protection, but rather for sport shooting. All of my guns are bolt action .22LR and not something someone would typically use in a holdup or a mass shooting. I keep them in a safe and we have no children living at home, so that’s not a consideration. I live on rural acreage outside city limits were the discharge of firearms is legal, so I’ve set up a small shooting range on my property. I only shoot on weekends during the day to avoid unnecessarily disturbing my neighbors, who are hundreds of yards away (and, besides, they ride motorcycles on their property which are FAR louder than my guns).

If the U.S. were to institute a gun ban, I’d gladly hand mine over and find a new hobby–I’m not that attached to them like many here are.


At least for basic survival purposes, a simple bolt action .22 is all you need 95% of the time.

After a hurricane, it’s important to kill rats (which spread many diseases, and are quite destructive), a raccoon, an oppossum, or even wild turkeys.

They are also good for rabbits and pigeons.