I’m not sure I understand. You’re calling plants, fungi, bacteria, etc. animals?
want to explain that more?
Im saying out of necessity of wonder came magic and preforming arts thus came science. This is is very clear among the Greeks of old with acts and plays alongside was the studeis of early psychology philosophy and science. I mean the epicenter for science and mathematics was in one of the most superstitious cities in the world and lost science due to it being “of the devil”. Baghdad of course. I suggest the discoveries of witchcraft as a read for what I’m explaining here. As slight of hand and trickery are why we have critical thinking it’s what allowed the auther of that book to expose false claims and show the public the truth about fake magik which turned out to just be science and maths.
I think you’re a victim of motivated reasoning. You are into magic and want to center it as some sort of driver for the modern world. I’m sure it’s fair to say that performative illusions and a sense of wonder arguably deserve more credit than they may have gotten as getting the ball rolling in the past, but I think you’ve got an overdetermined view of it. It could just as well be a driver for magical thinking divorced from anything grounded in reality.
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How are you measuring the level of superstition?
“Lost science”? What does that mean?
What are your sources for this?
It seems humans had basic concepts of mathematics already tens of thousands of years ago;
The use of yarn by Neanderthals some 40,000 years ago at a site in Abri du Maras in the south of France suggests they knew basic concepts in mathematics.
(Source)
Basic concepts of mathematics were needed for counting, and to do accounting, which is also an ancient discipline;
Accounting records dating back more than 7,000 years have been found in Mesopotamia,[12] and documents from ancient Mesopotamia show lists of expenditures, and goods received and traded.[1] The development of accounting, along with that of money and numbers, may be related to the taxation and trading activities of temples
(Source)
And then for written mathematics, well, that happened at least 5000 years ago;
The earliest evidence of written mathematics dates back to the ancient Sumerians, who built the earliest civilization in Mesopotamia. They developed a complex system of metrology from 3000 BC that was chiefly concerned with administrative/financial counting, such as grain allotments, workers, weights of silver, or even liquids, among other things.[25] From around 2500 BC onward, the Sumerians wrote multiplication tables on clay tablets and dealt with geometrical exercises and division problems. The earliest traces of the Babylonian numerals also date back to this period.
(Source)
And from geometry, you start to get mathematics that you can use in architecture and civil engineering.
All this suggests that mathematics arose because people needed to count, to do accounting, and to build bigger and more complex buildings, rather than from wonder, magic, and performing arts. And with mathematics in place, people could start applying it to other fields, and end up with science, as history has shown. Quite frankly, I see very little room for your magic and performing arts here. But please enlighten me.
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I’m not sure if you’ve ever held conversations with a person of the Muslim faith but the people I’ve spoken to and are friends with are very superstitious. They believe Christians use magic and the devil helps them to gain followers, they refuse anything outside of their teachings that has to do with science and are even afraid of it as they genuinely believe its the work of satan. Al- Ghazali is the man who started this and caused Baghdad to lose scientific advancement now there’re trying to catch up. The evidence is quite clear on this.
It seems you’ve assumed that I’m saying this is where it began thats not what i meant. Im not sure how to source it like you did but here the Wikipedia title ( Mathematics in the medieval Islamic world) and the wiki page for Al-Khwarizmi is worth the read as well.
Your response to my questions came no where near answering them.
I asked for sources for this, but you didn’t give any. Do you have sources?
I’m just taking your text at face value. If that was not you meant, you should not write it, and you should avoid writing ambiguous statements.
Also, earlier you wrote this:
Do you have sources for this? Can you give us examples from the vast array of “most scientific advances” that came from magic and the need to perform and inspire? When and where was “magic” the prime source of scientific advances?
Regarding mathematics, I think we can conclude that it didn’t originate from magic, but from necessity. And regarding scientific progress, proto-R&D also most likely originated from necessity. Think experimentation on how to make stone tools better and more efficient. And the process to find a good way to preserve embers when moving the remains of your campfire to your new campsite. And the observation that it is easier to move heavy objects if they can move on top of rolling logs (which gives us a plausible step in the invention of the wheel). I must confess I have problems imagining solutions that have magic as the source or the motivation.
I’m willing to allow that people have an innate desire to have mastery over their environment, because aside from curiosity, they want a stable and predictable (and hopefully, comprehensible) life experience. And some have tried to attain that via religious or occult means in the past. But science has been so successful in actually delivering in this regard, that rather than seeming to me to be grounded in magic, it is a separate and successful branch of inquiry, quite possibly motivated by the failure of other methods to deliver results that are distinguishable from random happenstance.
In that VERY limited sense, one could somewhat misleadingly say that the quest for knowledge passed through magic on its way to scientific inquiry. But what’s far more accurate to me is that imploring the gods or pursuing the dark arts were dead ends, not anything that science BUILDS upon.
As far as magic goes in all of this mathematics was considered magik and as far as a lay person knew when you did an equation it was something mystical and misunderstood often viewed as communicating with gods and reading the stars and what have you basic counting was obviously first and probably held little merit to the supernatural but the unknown was used to exploit people from 2700 B.C (probably before this) all the way till 1584 when Reginald Scot released the book the discoveries of witchcraft to the public which is the first book to expose the supernatural as nothing more then math and science. This is the first time people are shown under the hood to question and be skeptical. Also the first ever magic book ever teaching a trick. As far as modern science I backed up my claim as best I could because the magic community is a little odd in respects to secrecy and sharing exact historical evidence. Information unfortunately because its made inaccessible to public access is left as personal testimony. But i think thats really starting to change it just takes time. As far as any sources look at most mathematicians. Alot of them were also practicing magicians for very clear reasons. To understand mathematics even deeper. It simply teaches us critical thinking along with improving the world through methods created to perform an effect. The magic community has first access to new science and mathematics and there are legal agreements to this so that things can be tested in ways that can maybe solve problems normal society has. And it’s kind of like being a super spy like I literally have a device that shoots fire balls from my wrist and another device that literally can make sand dane and bend the water coming from a faucet. Sorry just nerding out a little. To provide full sources I would have to fully expose the methodology of tricks created by people who would definitely sue me.
Been a while since ive posted… ive not nearly had enough rum in order to adequately reply.
Math is magic… riiiiiiight.
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Still no sources for this claim? You have been asked repeatedly for sources to back this up, but you have so far ignored these requests. Instead, you have just repeated the claims, as if repeating assertions enough times make them true. So now is the time to invoke Hitchens’s razor: What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. So until you can back your claims up with relevant sources, I call bullshit.
2700 B.C. - The reputed first known performance of a conjuring effect (balls) was said to have been done by the magician Djedi in ancient Egypt. Dedi had done other effects, such as decapitating a bird, then reattaching the head to resurrect it. (This is disputed as there is nothing in reference to Djedi, specifically in the Westcar Papyrus, to indicate that he performed the cups and balls for anyone. The famous drawing of two men seemingly performing the cups and balls, from the tomb of Baqet III at Beni Hasan is believed by most experts to show a game using pots[1] or cups[2] but details of the game are unknown.) [note 1]
1300–650 B.C. - References to magic are abundant in the ancient Greek myths among the classical founding pagan cultures of Europe, connected to the neighbouring Egyptian and Persian ones. Often centered around women of divine origin, nymphs and priests, from Ariadne to Calypso, Circe to Medea, Hermes to Hecate, magic, divination and necromancy are widespread and intertwined with chthonic Gods and monsters, oracles and heroes.
50–300 A.D. - The Acetabularii performed the Cups and balls in ancient Rome using stones and small vinegar cups (hence the name Acetabularii). The Acetabularii are a group of magicians specializing on the cups and balls effect.
400–1000 - The Dark Ages; little is known about the history of magic, but much of it was associated with the occult and magic as entertainment is not prominent. Magic as entertainment in fact has been a cornerstone in the entertainment industry, the theater itself started as a place of magic and wonder with children being a primary focus (now more than ever). The influential pasts historic moments in magic has built what we now see in many venues of entertainment.
1000–1500 - The Middle Ages, where much magic was associated with the occult and witchcraft. The growing trading nature of society allowed some street or circus performers to make a living out of old classics such as the cups and balls and in fact more modern ideas such as cheating by short changing via sleights with coins and other small objects.
1584 - Reginald Scot publishes The Discoverie of Witchcraft, a book designed in part to counter the activities of persecutionists, but at the same time revealing many conjuring secrets of the day. Magic and witchcraft were linked, and many copies of Scot’s book were burnt in the early 17th century.
Is this enough evidence?
So… I haven’t doubted that illusions through sleight of hand etc. has existed since prehistoric times. What I am missing, though, is sources that document the connection between performing conjuring tricks and the origins of science. And mathematics. None of your sources seem to touch upon that.
I also think some clarification is in order:
If some conjuring artist (“magician”), somewhere, at some point in time, happened to invent a device to help him with a new trick, or to improve upon an existing trick, that device does not, imho, qualify as having been inspired by “magic”. It is still necessity that drives the innovation. And in any case, such examples are marginal. The real drivers would be farmers and artisans that invent new tools, and wise men that are employed by the ruler to come up with new knowledge and technology, as well as rich and creative persons that are economically independent, and thus have a lot of spare time to experiment.
This is a reasonable argument and one i appreciate. The issue like I’ve said is that simply sources for this are limited to secrecy. I mean the Wikipedia page for the history of magic straight up says its not fully thorough and has some significant gaps. But when you follow the craft that information is eventually shared with you as a fellow magician (if you can gain a mentor who knows the history) and I would agree that just because someone says something doesn’t always mean its true but i trusted my mentor and he gave me a look at certain things we use today and showed how they were first used in magic.
- Alchemy and Chemistry
Key Idea: Alchemy, though mystical, developed experimental methods and apparatus that laid the groundwork for modern chemistry.
Sources:
Principe, Lawrence M. — “The Secrets of Alchemy” (University of Chicago Press, 2012): A scholarly exploration of how alchemy transitioned into chemistry.
Encyclopedia.com – Alchemy to Chemistry
Britannica – Alchemy
- Astrology and Astronomy
Key Idea: Ancient astrology led to the development of astronomy and mathematical tools like early trigonometry.
Sources:
Rochberg, Francesca — “The Heavenly Writing: Divination, Horoscopy, and Astronomy in Mesopotamian Culture” (Cambridge University Press, 2004).
Axios – Babylonians’ Trigonometry
Neugebauer, Otto — “The Exact Sciences in Antiquity”: Explores how astrology and astronomy were intertwined in Babylon and Egypt.
- Numerology and Mathematics (Pythagorean Influence)
Key Idea: Pythagorean mysticism saw numbers as sacred, sparking foundational developments in math and musical theory.
Sources:
Kirk, G.S., Raven, J.E., and Schofield, M. — “The Presocratic Philosophers”: Discusses Pythagoras and number mysticism.
Guthrie, W.K.C. — “Pythagoras and the Pythagoreans”
New Yorker – “Pure Pythagoras”
- Magic and Optical Science
Key Idea: Stage magic and illusions used lenses, mirrors, and sleight of hand—leading to curiosity and advances in optics and psychology.
Sources:
Wade, Nicholas J. — “The Art and Science of Visual Illusions” (Routledge): Covers how illusions contributed to our understanding of vision.
Lamont, Peter — “The Rise of the Indian Rope Trick”: Links the history of stage magic to psychology and perception.
Wikipedia – Phenakistiscope
- Occultism and the Scientific Revolution
Key Idea: Figures like Newton and Kepler studied alchemy, Hermeticism, and astrology—seeing them as complementary to their scientific pursuits.
Sources:
Dobbs, Betty Jo Teeter — “The Foundations of Newton’s Alchemy”
Westfall, Richard — “Never at Rest: A Biography of Isaac Newton”
Nautilus – “How the Occult Gave Birth to Science”
Wikipedia – Newton’s Occult Studies