Lol 😂 back at Apocalyptic fear mongering

[boomer47]

@Sheldon

The fact he was a genius makes him more, and not less culpable for his actions in my opinion.

I don’t remember saying that, nor am I aware of evidence of such. Has he ever been charged?

IMo It’s too easy and pointless to argue about what should have happened. It’s hard enough discovering what actually did happen. However, if that’s of interest too you, there are plenty of alternative history books and articles around./

Competent mangers surround themselves with competent people. Men of power need to surround themselves with competent, ruthless minions. I repeat, Kissinger is exactly the kind of person I would choose in the same circumstances.

@Sheldon

He was complicit in mass murder, for political gain. Under his advise, the Nixon administration continued the Vietnam war and intensified bombing that included illegally bombing rural villages and communities bordering Vietnam that had no direct involvement in the war, and little if any strategic val

The Vietnam war was one of the most cynically dishonest wars in modern history. Any president who sat during that war is culpable. I have recently discovered that the US never had any intention of winning that terrible war. Art least according to a former Australian Prime Minister. I can’t remember which one so can’t expect you to take me word…

So too George W Bush for Iraq. Under the terms of the Nuremberg Statutes, Bush was guilty of waging a war of aggression, imo.

Anyway, Henry Kissinger is still alive; he’s 97… Perhaps you could get a petition going to have him charged with war crimes.

[Sheldon]

@boomer47

I don’t remember saying that, nor am I aware of evidence of such. Has he ever been charged?

Kissinger? No, quite the opposite, he was lauded for ending the Vietnam war, when in fact he had aided Nixon in prolonging it for political reasons. Countless pointless and unecessary deaths. While they lied or misled everyone.

That was the point I was making sorry, that egregiously evil deeds often go unpunished.

An article about Kissinger, and potential war crimes.

That’s from Hitchens, and of course as he admits in the article, he was a long term political opponent of Kissinger.

Another source, outlining potential war crimes by Kissinger.

Theres plenty more sources, and not just about Vietnam. Try googling for Amnesty International evidence of war crimes by Henry Kissinger.

I forget who said it, but I remember a political commentator saying that " awarding the Nobel peace prize to Henry Kissinger had basically rendered political satire redundant."

I think they may have had a point.

@boomer47

Anyway, Henry Kissinger is still alive; he’s 97… Perhaps you could get a petition going to have him charged with war crimes.

I have nothing to offer that hasn’t already been demonstrated. However there is ample evidence he should have been prosecuted for a number of offences, though obviously if powerful world leaders and their advisors were held accountable this would negate my point.

Thatcher hosted Pinochet for medical treatment in Britain, refused to let him be extradited, which was illegal on it’s own. A piece of vile reciprocity for him letting Britain use Chillean air bases to launch military planes during the Falklands war.

…and on and on it goes.

Which is my point really.

[boomer47]

@Sheldon

Thatcher hosted Pinochet for medical treatment in Britain, refused to let him be extradited,

Yeah. There was a tv movie about that. Apparently they got along famously and Maggie actually liked him. She didn’t want him extradited because of the precedent it would set. He was arguably the worst dictator in South American History.

Pinochet was put in power with help from the US. The CIA had helped assassinate the democratically elected president, Salvador Allende, a communist.

I don’t doubt any of the facts you’ve posted. I simply think they’re irrelevant in the real world. A cynic and realist, I think the concept of realpolitik is probably closer to reality than naive views about democracy and justice for that matter… Or not. It’s just an opinion.

I do not imply that politics are “coercive, amoral and Machiavellian”, I think that is the case, mostly. However, I don’t claim that description describes all politicians, just most or the majority at least.- – Here I think of Jimmy Carter who imo was none of those things. But Donald Trump was coercive and amoral, but not smart enough to be Machiavellian. His political supporter are smart enough to have been all three…

Trivia; Thatcher was anti Europe, and blocked the change from Sterling to the Euro.

I have had the view that ‘we the people’ are sheep for several decades. The election of Donald Trump simply reinforced that opinion.

(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((9)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Realpolitik

[Sheldon]

Well this reinforces my original point then, that powerful people often get away with egregiously bad or illegal deeds.

Of course hindsight is always 20/20, and it’s easy to see what “should have been done” in retrospect, often when there is no remaining fear of the consequences. However I think the adage that governments should fear their people, and not the other way around, is very apt. Were it more often the case, how much better might our political leaders behave.

Anyone see the film about vice president Dick Cheney, it’s called Vice, and stars Christian Bale? It’s an interesting film.

[Whitefire13]

@Sheldon

powerful people often get away with egregiously bad or illegal deeds.

…they often stretch the “law” or legal interpretation (think rubber band) to the point of breaking - and then stop

ONE reason “powerful” people get away with these acts is most often it is a “group effort” or buy in from the public (support). Once there is some form of group approval, it becomes something different (from terrorism to revolution as an example).

Where it “goes sideways” for these “power hungry control freaks” is once they get what they want, often they forget HOW it was achieved and WHY (reasons) and become immersed in their paranoid delusions (probably born of projecting onto others what they would do)…

Governments CAN and have CAUSED untold death and suffering to millions - on the other hand they have also brought peace and unity, health and prosperity to millions…

[Whitefire13]

Here’s an example of “constitutional amendments” (2020)…

• The amendments of 2020 remove the “in a row” clause from the article regulating the maximum number of presidential terms, discounting previous presidential terms before the amendment enters into force. Other changes are recognition of Russia as a successor to the Soviet Union in relationship to international organizations, treaties, and assets of the USSR stipulated by international treaties outside the territory Russian Federation, banning ceding Russian territory, diminishing the accomplishments by the “defenders of the fatherland” and their role in World War II is no longer allowed, and enshrining God and heterosexual marriage in the constitution.[16][17][18] Other amendments would enshrine the role of the Russian language as that of “state forming people”, a constitutional reference to God and giving statutory backing to the State Council.

From 25 June to 1 July 2020, a nationwide votetook place, with 78 % of voters voting in favor of the amendments with a turnout of 65 %, according to official results.

Putin signed an executive order on 3 July 2020 to officially insert the amendments into the Russian Constitution - they took effect on 4 July 2020.[19]*

Originally (early 1990s) their Constitution was drafted based in internationally recognized human rights.

Putin has played power for decades (back and forth between President and Prime Minister).

Any opposing commentary by journalists is (ummmm - “shut down”).

[Sheldon]

@Whitefire13

…they often stretch the “law” or legal interpretation (think rubber band) to the point of breaking - and then stop

Or create laws that allow them to abuse power, and to hang onto it in attempts to change democracies into autocracies.

@Whitefire13

Governments CAN and have CAUSED untold death and suffering to millions - on the other hand they have also brought peace and unity, health and prosperity to millions…

Indeed, and I’d argue there is evidence, that robust democracies have the best records of this, but even then it’s by no means guaranteed.

Expect the worst, but hope for the best, is still an adage I find useful after over 5 decades.

Thus I don’t expect Trump to face a courtroom, anymore than I expect prince Andrew will, but I live in hope.

[EricSanders]

Putin simply usurped power in Russia.The toughest thing I’ve heard is that he wrote the existence of God in the Constitution.

[Whitefire13]

I’m not sure which country you live in, but “god” makes its way into politics all the time. Not surprising to me. Explains the authoritarian rule and craving for authoritarian rulers…after all, that’s all god is…

Welcome!

Edited to add:
Not sure which “god” you believe BUT Russia’s “God” is not a humanitarian. Neither is the god of the bible…oh or the Koran - Jesus, now that I think about it… explains why by-and-large swaths of religion-politics results in horrible policies for citizens.

[boomer47]

@EricSanders

Putin simply usurped power in Russia.The toughest thing I’ve heard is that he wrote the existence of God in the Constitution.

Good move.

There’s a very old aphorism, Roman I think, something like this: “To the common man, the gods are real, to the wise man, foolish, to the leader, useful”