Liar’s Paradox and God

Liar’s Paradox and God

I’d be interested to hear some solutions to the Liar’s Paradox, but this is my take on it.

“I am lying”

This statement can’t be true, or else it would negate its own truth “function”.

This statement cannot be false, or else it would negate its own truth “value”.

My solution is to throw “truth” out altogether and claim that “everything is a lie in some sense and the “truth” of any value or function only exists on a conventional level and, in other words, not on an ultimate level. Ie. there are no ultimate truths.”

So, let’s look at truth.

“I am not lying”.

Well, this statement has no value or function. Nor does:

“I am being truthful.”

The statement only takes value or function when it is “about something”.

Ie. “a is true” or “a exists”

Now, we are only capable of stating “a” in the same sense that we “label” it as such. So already, this “truth” is automatically conventional.

What about “life exists on other planets”. ?

Now, this has an ultimate answer, which we can verify. Because, we can define life with very good precision and ask a yes or no question. But, we can go to a million planets, not find life, and still not know the ultimate truth of this statement.

On the other hand, perhaps we can never travel to planets and ie. we will “never know”. If we can never know, it still remains ultimate.

But the moment we do find life on another planet, that truth which was once ultimate becomes conventional. Knowing about life on other planets recoils back to labels, which are only conventional to begin with. Ie. they are just subtle lies made up so that we can navigate through reality. Boogeyman syndrome.

What about Nibbana? Well it’s defined in conventional terms. The end of suffering. The end of lust, hatred, and ignorance. The ending of the cosmos. But also, as neither existing nor not-existing. But also, “both exists and does not exist” is incorrect. But also “neither exists nor does not exist” is incorrect. Yet, “with that attainment comes the knowledge “release” and “there will be no future arising for me”.

So, the Buddha’s teaching is that there is something ultimate that can be known but transcends feeling and perception. Since it is a “blowing out” and “an end to the cosmos in this very body as it is” it is therefore the farthest away from the concept of God that one can get.Yet, it has no truth or not-truth value or function.

Now, this brings us to the notion of God. We get conventional descriptions. He’s a man in a white robe with a white beard. He had a son named Jesus. He talked with Mohamed. Etc.

But isn’t God supposed to be ultimate? He’s supposed to be the very definition of Ultimate. So if any of us were to see or hear him he would, as I pointed out above with aliens, become conventional. He is not like aliens in the sense that if we can not possibly fathom him he still exists. That is not the same as not being “capable” of fathoming the Ultimate existence of God.

But God is also not ultimate in the same category as Nibbana. He exists. Or he doesn’t.

However. If he has the same properties of not existing; not not-existing; both existing and not existing does not apply; and neither existing and not existing also does not apply … then he is Ultimate. However, he cannot be conventional in any sense. He can’t be a white robed, white bearded man in the sky.

What is God? Quite simply, if we get high on mushrooms we often notice that the world is interconnected. And this is a certain transcendental type of knowledge which goes beyond mere perception. It seems to be the underlying thread of all perceptions, all together, and all at the same time. So, this is God. It does not have to fall into any category of existence. Nor do we even have to call it God, per say. We can call it the “Universal Connectivity Principle”. Or “the Grand Wave Function”. That which transcends grasping.

It does not create, or judge, or give birth to children. But, in a sense it is an underlying current in the world.

I wrote this in a hurry. Comments or questions are appreciated. Other truth value and function categories I’ve missed would also be appreciated.


The interconnection of “everything” is very common claim amongst high dosage users of hallucinogens, more particularly those with concentrations of Psilocybin.

Some studies of high dosage recipients has sought to make the similarity of such an experience after the event as “evidence” for a god, godlike thing or as you put it Ratty “Universal Connectivity Principle”. Of course, it is evidence of the effect of the drug in high dosage on a number of people…

Much like pseudo-cocaine will numb the nerve endings of teeth at the dentist in nearly all cases. It is a testament to the efficacy of the drug not the existence of a tooth numbing fairy or “Universal Tooth Numbing Principle” .

Do stop Ratty. When you attempt this conversation you don’t sound sensible.

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Maybe too abstract. I agree. I could use more grounding. Less dopamine. Less caffeine.

However … DMT, Psilocybin, Psilocin and Serotonin are remarkably similar in structure. DMT is exactly the same as Serotonin with the exception of a hydroxy group. Psilocybin has some phosphiriffic activity going on. Psilocin (found in Blue Meanies - not a part of the cubensis clad) is exactly the same as Serotonin with the hydroxy group on a different part of the hexagonal carbon ring.

Now. I don’t know what that all means exactly. But my best mushroom trip felt pretty much the same as me in college having a really good day in the spring time (not necessarily high on drugs mind you).

I would say I’ve had the grand wave function feeling from time to time when I felt very relaxed. I’m not arguing that it proves God. Not at all. Quite the contrary. I’m saying that everything is connected in some form or fashion - and that people with healthy levels of serotonin are somewhat aware of this fact. Not every connection is a cause. But there are underlying currents moving the world here and there. Butterfly effect and whatnot.

Waiting for Cog’s unforgiving reaction to this post :stuck_out_tongue:

It’s a paradox. Your supposed solution is moronic. Do you understand the word “PARADOX?”

No, we can’t. Open a biology book. Are viruses alive or not alive? Once again you prove you have no frigging idea what you are talking about. There is little “Percision” in the definition of life. You just keep looking for that, “Ultimate Truth” ratty. (Knowing is the beginning of idnorance.)

Oh fuck, are you on this Buddhist bullshit again? “Suffering” is a fucking illusion you have bought into. You end it by simply not suffering. Why in the fuck would you want to end lust. Lust is a very healthy emotion. Hatred is equally useful. I hate the idea of living in a society with a bunch of dipshits. I hate the idea of living in a world that is completely lawless. So we try to educate the dipshits (hint hint hint) and we make laws and enforce them to lock away the dipshits that refuse to be educated.

Mumbo jumbo does not lead you anyplace… You mutter the teachings and in every breath demonstrate your complete lack of comprehension.

The notion of God: Oh for fuck sake here we go again!
Why couldn’t an ultimate god not manifest as someong in white robes who talked to Muhammad and appeared as Jesus. (Fuck, you make the stupidest assertions!) He is ultimate, he can also be exactly like aliens. Come on Ratty… fucking apply an ounce of consistancy to the crap you are spewing.

Then he is also not ultimate. You have given him a boundary. Do you have an inkling of a fucking clue?

NO RATTY: “If we get high on mushrooms, we do not notice the world is interconnected.” The things in the world are interconnected because they are. This is an obvious fact. Life feeds on life. It’s all connected. There is nothing “Transcendent” in any of this bullshit. It’s most certainly not beyond perception.

So God does not have to fall into any category? What god? You have shown no argument for or existence of anything even related to a god. You made one assertion. “The God thing is Ultimate, but for the limitations you placed on it.”

The only thing that transcends grasping around this place is your sanity.

You do know that rats scurry away when they’re frightened by big, mean monkeys, right?


hides in corner

I repent. I repent. I’ve had a long day and one too many Red Bulls. I’ll come back after I learn how to keep my nose out of trouble. Bah :wave:

Not going down without a war.

Paradoxes are solved. See Einstein’s improvement on Newton’s explanation for why the moon stays in orbit around Earth. Spooky action at a distance. A paradox. Solved by general relativity. Non-Euclidean geometry.

Fortunately for you, there is an answer. I have a degree in Life Sciences. I ought to know.

The boundary between what is alive and what is not lies between viruses and single celled organisms.

If it can’t replicate it’s own DNA or RNA - it is (by strict definition) not alive. If it can, again by definition it is alive. So, if we travel to Planet X and find viruses that can’t replicate their genome without first hijacking the ribosomes of a host cell then there are both living and non-living “things” on other planets.

Is DNA or RNA the only way to store the information needed to build proteins? Are amino acid chains the only kind of molecule that can form a protein? Is ATP the only energy currency in the universe? That’s a whole other question for a different thread. If we have to redefine “life” using different molecules, then so be it. “Life” as we know it replicates on its own. Big deal, right? So do crystals. I’m not a geologist, but I’m sure someone here can explain to you why a crystal isn’t a living thing. Something to do with orgasms, I’m sure.

Yea. This again. I’m also an expert in Buddhology.

Don’t like the Nibbana Banana? Don’t eat it. Don’t shit all over it either.

Here’s 40 ounces for you. Sip it slowly.

What’s God’s resting state? Is it like the Abrahamic Tradition believes as stated in Genesis? Kind of like a human? But with an invisibility cloak, so we don’t see him? And a sound proof basement suite, so we don’t hear him? Febreeze air fresheners all over the place? Have you ever wondered what God smells like?

But seriously? What’s his most fundamental resting state? Because if it’s a body, there’s some explaining to do. Does he have internal organs? Does he breathe air? Does he eat? Does he shit bricks of gold?

If God is Ultimate, then he is also Eternal. If he is eternal any representation of him that is also ultimate is also eternal. He cannot simply create a rock he is unable to lift. And he can’t create an ultimate bodily form unless that form is also eternal.

Take the burning bush. Moses was high on mushrooms when God took the form of a burning bush. This was an example of God’s ultimate power. However the bush itself was impermanent. Subject to change. I don’t suppose it’s still burning out there in some undisclosed location. Do you?

The bush is not His ultimate state, biblically or theoretically, or philosophically speaking. His ultimate state should be his resting state (and notice I’m not saying that “it is”. It should be in theory).

The theoretical/religious argument that He can come out of his resting state and create facsimiles of himself which persist a little while and then go away is a dimension of his posited Ultimate Nature (yes. You are correct in that regard. Notice again I am not claiming it is the case. It is a posited point of conjecture). The facsimiles themselves would not be ultimate, in theory. They would appear and disappear like any other form in the universe (in theory).

So, theoretically- God has a resting state. If we suppose he exists, then the observation that we don’t ever perceive him (except via so-called historically recorded facsimiles) means that it isn’t readily available to our senses.

Theoretically, whatever God is, God need not ever reveal his Ultimate nature to us. Perhaps he couldn’t. Perhaps we’d just shit our pants and our skeletons would jump out of our bodies if we ever saw God’s true nature. I don’t know. I don’t care. I don’t believe in him.

I haven’t argued for his existence. I’ve argued that, if anything at all, he’s beyond categorization. Because, whatever his resting state is, it has to go beyond the definitions of exists, does not exist, both exists and does not exist, neither exists nor does not exist.

It’s only when tradition claims he appears to men, that there is even any so-called evidence of him. And I don’t support or buy into those traditional claims.

God cannot be verified. So, it’s just as if He’s not there at all. Believe it or not, you can’t verify it.

Drugs fuck you up and remove you from reality. Take it from someone who went down that rabbit hole.

These days I just smoke pot, and I am fully aware even that drug can fuck you up. So I don’t do anything but practice couch-lock. In fact, I don’t even post in forums because I know i will sound like a nutcase or someone suffering from delusions. I don’t even take Red Bull or any energy drinks. If my body can not produce the required energy on it’s own, supplementing that function just diminishes my own ability to be alert without chemical assistance.

That is because almost every religion defines their god as some agent that can not be examined. That does not mean there is no god, that just means that the god(s) as defined by most religions is illogical.

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WTF? Enigmas are not Paradoxes.

You have a degree in life sciences? Then we are in complete agreementy, You SHOULD fucking “KNOW.” So, why do you insist of babbling nonsense?

I’m pretty sure you just proved my point. It is a fallacy to regard the world in binary classes. Your fucking Buddhist teachings stress this? How many hairs must a man loose before he is bald. How may grains of sand does it take to make a mountain? Indeterminacy is everywhere and it includes the distinction between the living and non-living. We use definitions because they are useful, not because they are real.

You aren’t even close… Quoting shit does not make you an expert. You need to begin understanding the shit you are spouting before you could even begin to consider yourself a student. Every word you utter demonstrates ignorance.

Oh Fuck! Now god has a resting state? You are so full of shit !

God is a non-falsifiable claim. You need to take your meds ratty.

UNFALSIFIABLE! That is the category your god belongs in. Isn’t it amazing how the unfalsifiable begs the argument from ignorance?

“God is ultimate” but I have not argued for his existence? Then how in the fuck would you know he is ultimate? You know something about something that does not exist? Ratty with more fucktard assertions. \

So, if everything I say is a lie, then how the hell am I suppose tell anybody I’m a liar?

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Relax Tin, Everybody already knows.

That’s a lie!.. (Oh, wait… :thinking:)


I don’t know that he’s ultimate. In a philosophical sense people would assume him to be. Proving or disproving that is another question.

How about this. A paradox. We assume God is Ultimate. Therefore he should be able to create anything. How about a stone that is too heavy for him to lift?

Is that a paradox, or a contradiction? Is that not a proof of that there is a flaw in the assumption that God has Ultimate Creator power? Ie. he can’t (in theory).

Back to real Ultimate things … the Underlying connection between all objects in our environment is a perception of an ultimate principle that need not take on human anthropomorphism.

That is all I’m saying. The Sikh religion is like this. God is just a principle. The word is interchangeable with “underlying essence” for example.

Oh fuck. When did that become a paradox? Seriously dude, you just don’t have a clue.
There is nowhere in all of creation where God is not. Psalm 139:7-12

God is the rock. God is not the rock. God is lifting the rock. God is not able to lift the rock. There is nothing that is not god. The paradox only exists when you are blind to God’s existence. Silly rat boy, with his stupid assertions. These fucking apologetcs have been around for thousands of years. Why would you fucking assume there is a paradox? The response to this stupidity is so old that I had to dig through three feet of dust to post it. Ratty… trade in your brain and see if you can get a cherry jelly bean. At least then, you would have something useful.
1:17 He is all things and in him all things are held together. (Colossians)

No! What in the fuck has your brain been soaking in this time? You can not have an ultimate thing and a paradox when there are no things without God. Emptiness is form and form is emptiness. How the fuck do you not know this Mr… Buddhist?

What underlying essence? If the world is interchangable, then we don’t fucking need “Underlying Essence.” We already have a word for it “WORLD,” and we don’t need the mystical woo woo. Sheesh!

Please PROVE that assertion. FYI I do not agree.

Hmmm… God is Super Glue?

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Ahem, please specify on this chart. There are different kinds of shit.

I’ve heard that argued. “He is the atomic force that binds the atoms together.” I have been at this a long time. I was also one of those Bible-toting dweebs that people avoid. So even before I developed my winning personality, people avoided me.


Religion is a complicated and detailed subject. Most of us might get lost in our thoughts if we try to reach this subject. I grew up with Christian parents, so religion always had a special place in my heart. I can’t curse. I respect my parents and religion, which bans curse words. Once I encountered a group of uncultured people. They were friendly and great, but they were badly influenced. I ended up getting a bad influence. I requested help from SPAM REMOVED BY MOD - INSERT SATAN :smiling_imp: more information. It helped me a lot to get over the influence and bad habits.

Specifically, what were these influences and bad habits you reject?