LGBT & woke as "religion"

[Sheldon]

Yes our gender identity can and does sometimes differ from our biological sex.

@Paulington

All of these things, in fact these things in particular are comparable. You have felt opposiing emotions, they compare and contrast with each other.

And can’t be measured by any tool I am aware of, as you suggested they must be.

@Paulington

Whereas feeling like a man or a woman is impossible, other than in the sense of biological reality that is.

That’s a subjective claim, and the consensus among the scientific field of psychiatry does not support it. So I am going to have to go with that scientific consensus, rather than your subjective unevidenced opinion.

@Paulington

Youve never been a woman, how would you be able to idenify if you feel like a woman and what does it mean to feel like a specific gender?

I have already explained that I am a man, and that it also happens to match my biological sex. Thus I do not suffer from gender dysphoria, if you are genuinely interested in learning how this affects people, I imagine the literature from psychiatry is available on the internet, you can search for it. I also happen to be heterosexual, and cannot tell you how it feels to be gay, but nonetheless gay people exist, and deserve the same rights and respect as straight people, as do those suffering from gender dysphoria.

[Paulington]

@Sheldon

And can’t be measured by any tool I am aware of, as you suggested they must be.

I said either measurable or comparative. You can compare all those feelings.

[Sheldon]

@Paulington

Ive always been biologically male and physically been able to sense that but there is no seperate sensation of gender

Why would it be separate?

@Paulington

it seems to me like a spiritual thing.

I have explained now several times that there is a scientific consensus in psychiatry that gender dysphoria is real, they do not as far as I am aware base their findings on “spirituality” whatever that is.

@Paulington

Even if i was disgusted with my own male sexual organs and wanted them off and replaced by female ones that really isnt me feeling female, im still a man who happens to hate his body and wants to change it.

Again this simply means you are not suffering from gender dysphoria, you keep making this same error in reasoning? it’s a false equivalence for you to compare yourself to those who are suffering from gender dysphoria, and that does violate a principle of logic of course, as it is fallacious.

@Paulington

And like the op i can see the similiarity beteeen this and anorexia.

Another false equivalence, since anorexia is considered a psychiatric disorder, and gender dysphoria is not. There is no similarity.

[Paulington]

@Sheldon

I have already explained that I am a man, and that it also happens to match my biological sex.

This doesnt explain how you feel like a man. Distinct from the biological reality of you being a man what is this feeling you have of being a man? What is it that matches your biological sex?

[Sheldon]

@Paulington

@Sheldon

And can’t be measured by any tool I am aware of, as you suggested they must be.

I said either measurable or comparative. You can compare all those feelings.

I can compare a banana to a nuclear missile, what has this to do with scientific fact that gender dysphoria is real?

[Paulington]

@Sheldon

can compare a banana to a nuclear missile, what has this to do with scientific fact that gender dysphoria is real?

You brought them up, i have no idea

[Sheldon]

@Paulington

You brought them up, i have no idea

Then I guess we’re done, since the existence of gender dysphoria is supported by scientific evidence reflected in a consensus among psychiatry.

And of course you failed to explain any principle of logic that is violated by its existence. It seems you just don’t like the idea, and I can’t help you with that.

[mordant]

What all this boils down to is that some people feel their biological reality runs counter to their sense of self that it causes them so much acute distress and suffering that they prefer all the social pushback and medical expense and difficulty of gender-affirming care to bearing with the psychological pain – a pain which modern medicine has no effective “fix” for, even assuming they want it “fixed”.

GIVEN THAT, it seems to me that people should be able to decide for themselves what they want from life, how they want to identify and be identified, etc. I don’t need to understand it, I just have to accept it and understand that it’s none of my business.

One of my granchildren is a trans woman. We are monitoring Norway and Australia, both of which have legislation pending to accept trans persons under refugee status, and will probably facilitate her going someplace like that where she can live in relative peace.

All this nonsense because some people can’t just mind their own business, and more than that, have to persecute others for not conforming to their norms.

@Paulington doesn’t understand it, I get that. So what. They don’t HAVE to. They just have to respect others and mind their own business because the existence of trans, gender-fluid, LGBTQ+ / whatever isn’t relevant to the personal rights or needs of someone who doesn’t “get” it. It’s a single-digit percentage of the population that isn’t the traditional default cis-hetero identification and sexuality. It’s not some imagined slippery slope to someone holding a gun to @Paulington’s head and demanding that they change gender or be intimate with a member of the same sex.

It seems however that for some folks, just having to coexist with the knowledge that these Others share society with them is just as bad as someone holding a gun to their head and demanding that they conform. Maybe that is just projection, ya think? I certainly do.

Drop the conformity fetish, @Paulington. It’s just as unseemly as you think gay sex or gender-affirming care are.

[Sheldon]

That sums it up for me, like it, don’t like it, just don’t persecute people for being different.

[Paulington]

Its the feeling something that is not comparable, relative, measurable or detectable in anyway shape or form.

How can you say you feel like a woman or man when you have no frame of refence to compare to?

This is especially true if its outside of any biological reality.

If someone were to say i dislike having a penis and would rather have a vagina that at least has some basis in reality.

Saying i identify as a woman and a woman is someone who identifies as a woman its just circular logic, what is it that youre actually identifying as or feeling?

We are both men, you have stated you feel like a man but how?

I dont feel like a man, my feelings are bound by physical reality, i might feel more aggressive with elevated testosterone, i can physically feel my male body parts but other than this it would seem to me to be in the realm of the spiritual.

In a conversation with ai it basically said it self identification is a classic philosophical conundrum, self identity can seem circular however it is important to realise it is subjective.

When asked if this makes it unscientific if its purely subjective and based on inerpersonal experiences it just said that its correct that its difficult to scientifically study this topic.

[Sheldon]

@Paulington

Its the feeling something that is not comparable, relative, measurable or detectable in anyway shape or form.

It is detectable, science has detected it, as has been explained.

@Paulington

This is especially true if its outside of any biological reality.

It’s not outside of biological reality, again the scientific evidence demonstrates that gender dysphoria exists.

@Paulington

Saying i identify as a woman and a woman is someone who identifies as a woman its just circular logic,

No it isn’t, Circular logic is when an argument assumes it conclusion in it’s premise, without evidence, and there is scientific evidence that gender dysphoria exists.

@Paulington

We are both men, you have stated you feel like a man but how?

Nope, go back and read more carefully, the word feel is one you used, being a man is part of who I am, not just my biological sex, and not just a feeling.

@Paulington

I dont feel like a man

Good for you, maybe you have gender dysphoria then? I certainly don’t judge.

@Paulington

self identity can seem circular however it is important to realise it is subjective.

Sigh, it is not subjective, there is a broad scientific consensus, based on the objective scientific evidence that gender dysphoria exists.

@Paulington

When asked if this makes it unscientific if its purely subjective and based on inerpersonal experiences it just said that its correct that its difficult to scientifically study this topic.

It’s not difficult to study, it has and is being studied, and there is a broad consensus in science that gender dysphoria is real. Though it is not itself considered a mental disorder, it is listed in the DSM.

“DSM-5 defines it as a marked incongruence between a person’s experienced or expressed gender and their assigned gender at birth, leading to distress or impairment. The diagnosis focuses on the distress associated with the gender incongruence, not the gender identity itself.”

[Paulington]

@Sheldon

Nope, go back and read more carefully, the word feel is one you used, being a man is part of who I am, not just my biological sex, and not just a feeling.

Ok so its not just a feeling or biological sex, what is it?

You said not just a feeling, so there is a feeling of being a man, what is the feeling of you being a man besides basic biological feelings of body parts and hornones?

[Sheldon]

I just offered the broad clinical definition of gender dysphoria in that post?

@Paulington

You said not just a feeling, so there is a feeling of being a man, what is the feeling of you being a man besides basic biological feelings of body parts and hornones?

People clearly have a psychological gender identity, that is part of who they are, as well as a biological sex. The two need not be the same, and when they are not it creates gender dysphoria. How one feels is a part of it, but it is also a result of it.

[Paulington]

@Sheldon

DSM-5 defines it as a marked incongruence between a person’s experienced or expressed gender and their assigned gender at birth

How do you scientifically study subjective personal experience and expression?

A brief look at the research seems mostly unscientific. Self reporting, surveys, qualitative research and so on.

Just based on sheer logic i cant fathom how this research could result in the conclusion of a woman being a woman when they say they are a woman.

Im sure theres mounds of research ive overlooked but just in terms of looking at this practically and logically what could possibly be discovered that proves you are what you say you identify as.

[Paulington]

@Sheldon

People clearly have a psychological gender identity, that is part of who they are, as well as a biological sex. The two need not be the same, and when they are not it creates gender dysphoria. How one feels is a part of it, but it is also a result of it.

Beyond and sort of trends or societal norms its not clear to me that there is a psychogical gender identity beyond reacting mentally to the physical reality of what you are and to some extent what you want.
As an example women who want to attract men exagerate typical feminine traits in terms of whats seen as feminine in their society.

As i said i personally dont feel like a man, im just reacting to the reality of what my body is and hormones are, if anyone feels different i want to hear what feeling like a woman or a man feels like to them, beyond biology and societal norms.

[mordant]

@Paulington

How can you say you feel like a woman or man when you have no frame of refence to compare to?

People get to talk about their experiences and feelings. You do, I do, trans people do. Like all experiences and feelings, they can be observed, compared and studied. And have been.

Who am I, exactly – what gives me the right – to question your feelings and experiences? To disparage what you feel and experience? I have no standing, do I?

So who are you, exactly – what gives you the right to question the feelings and experiences of others? To disparage those feelings and experiences? To deny them? What is YOUR standing?

Again, you don’t have to understand, or even approve. Just let others be as they are – the same way, presumably, you want others to let you be as you are.

Just do it. Don’t insist you have to understand it first. It doesn’t have the slightest relevance to you. You get to go on being a cis-hetero man, and you don’t have to include non cis-hetero women in the set of people you might consider having a relationship with. The ONLY way it impacts you that I can think of is:

1. You have a family member – perhaps a child – experiencing gender dysphoria and you have to deal with them in a kind, respectful, supportive, loving way just the same.

2. You are experiencing gender dysphoria and have to be kind, respectful, supportive and loving to yourself, and reconcile it with, perhaps, contrary religious teachings or political beliefs that are in tension with it.

Apart from those, there’s just ONE other way it could matter:

3. It butthurts you that some people hold views completely outside your experience or whatever rules you feel you need to follow. And you want those people excluded from your field of awareness simply because you’re too fragile to coexist with them.

Maybe you can come up with another reason, but I don’t think so.

[Paulington]

I agree with everything you say about not disparaging trans people, and dont need to understand it, but if i find it illogical i dont think it should be unquestionable.

The circular logical of a woman being someone who identifies as a woman to me is the same as a car being something that feels like a car.

Surely to have any grounding in reality, there needs to be some objective criteria here.

Unless it is purely a fluid identity like being a flashy dresser or a punk rocker, in which case that makes sense.

[Sheldon]

@Paulington

@Sheldon

DSM-5 defines it as a marked incongruence between a person’s experienced or expressed gender and their assigned gender at birth

How do you scientifically study subjective personal experience and expression?

I never said it was an entirely subjective experience, and again if you want to study the phenomenon of gender dysphoria from the standpoint of psychiatry, then go do so.

@Paulington

A brief look at the research seems mostly unscientific. Self reporting, surveys, qualitative research and so on.

I think I already covered your denial of a broad scientific consensus, and I am dubious that your “brief look” was as rigorous and thorough as the research the field of physiatry has conducted, in order to reach that consensus.

@Paulington

Just based on sheer logic i cant fathom how this research could result in the conclusion of a woman being a woman when they say they are a woman.

Ironically what you have just offered is an known common logical fallacy, called an argument from personal incredulity. You need to either stop invoking logic, or gain a basic understanding of it.

@Paulington

Im sure theres mounds of research ive overlooked

Well there you go then. It would be risible to imagine you have subjected this topic to the kind of rigour, that the entire scientific field of psychiatry has, in order to form a broad consensus.

@Paulington

looking at this practically and logically

Nope sorry, you have done neither.

@Paulington

what could possibly be discovered that proves you are what you say you identify as.

Straw man fallacy.

@Paulington

Beyond and sort of trends or societal norms its not clear to me that there is a psychogical gender identity beyond reacting mentally to the physical reality of what you are and to some extent what you want.

it doesn’t need to be clear to you, only to science. How many established scientific facts are thoroughly conversant with, or care to be so, why does this particular scientific fact, stick in your craw exactly?

@Paulington

women who want to attract men exagerate typical feminine traits in terms of whats seen as feminine in their society.

Does that have any relevance to gender dysphoria, if so what is it?

@Paulington

As i said i personally dont feel like a man,

As I said you might have gender dysphoria, but either way it’s not my place to judge. You seem to be suggesting that the only way you know you’re a man, is by looking at your genitalia, if this is true, I have no explanation, as being a man is part of who I am, even without looking at my bits.

@Paulington

if anyone feels different i want to hear what feeling like a woman or a man feels like to them,

Again this sort of information must abound on the internet, type gender identity into Google, and off you go. Societal norms, as I explained right at the start, can be subjective, and have no relevance, being gay is not the norm, being short is not the norm, no one I suspect would suggest this means there are no gay or short people, or that gay or short people should not be treated equally and with respect.

[Sheldon]

@Paulington

if i find it illogical i dont think it should be unquestionable.

Which principle of logic do trans people violate and why? You keep making this claim, but only you have violated a principle of logic, by using known logical fallacies.

@Paulington

The circular logical of a woman being someone who identifies as a woman to me is the same as a car being something that feels like a car.

It’s not circular reasoning, I already explained that a circular argument is one that assumes it’s conclusion in its premise without evidence, there is scientific evidence that gender dysphoria exists, why do you keep ignoring this?

@Paulington

Surely to have any grounding in reality, there needs to be some objective criteria here.

Jesus fucking wept! There is objective evidence to support the existence of gender dysphoria. There is a broad scientific consensus based on that evidence, what do you imagine they did toss a fucking coin?

@Paulington

Unless it is purely a fluid identity like being a flashy dresser or a punk rocker, in which case that makes sense.

False equivalence fallacy, now that violates a principle of logic, and is by definition irrational. That two things share one or more similarities, does not make them the same.

[Paulington]

@Sheldon

As I said you might have gender dysphoria, but either way it’s not my place to judge. You seem to be suggesting that the only way you know you’re a man, is by looking at your genitalia, if this is true, I have no explanation, as being a man is part of who I am, even without looking at my bits.

It should be considered this might that a lifetime being a biological man might have something to do with your feeling like a man and not something that you just presume is a seperate identity.