Is god our only hope?

I was recently watching the you-tube channel of a young man whose channel is called “genetically modified skeptic” that showed some christian apologist named William Lane Craig if I remember correctly. He was spouting off by saying that without god, there is no purpose or meaning in anyone’s life, our lives are worthless and devoid of any meaning. I didn’t give this fucking clown permission to speak for me about the lack of a purpose in my life. Who the fuck says we need a god/gods in our lives to have any meaning or purpose in the only life we’re going to get?
I was born and raised catholic in southern california, went to their schools for 9 years before I opted out and finished in public school. Even as a kid, I never believed in any of their crap, I’ve always been an atheist. The 1 good thing that my dad taught me was that you have to work hard to support your family, it’s the only good thing he ever taught me.
Anyway, from 1980 until 2015 I worked my ass off to support my wife and our 2 kids, that was the purpose of my life, I didn’t have the time for anything else. In july of 2015, I had to retire from my job and go on permanent disability. The past 6 years have been very difficult, it’s included over a dozen surgeries, physical and mental therapy, depression, and thoughts about suicide.
It took me several years to realize that my purpose in life in not to support my wife and kids anymore, but to spend the rest of my life appreciating the job that my wife(mostly my wife) and I have done raising our family. Both of our kids are married to their perfect spouse and have families of their own. We have 4 grandkids now, they’re the reason for me still being here. I want to watch our kids and their families grow up.
My older sister died last august of a massive infection in her spine. We were never able to see her or even talk to her during her month long stay in 2 hospitals before she died. I’m very fucking angry about this, but I still have 2 younger sisters who live nearby. Yesterday was our 39th wedding anniversary, I have a wife who still cares for me even though I was far from being the perfect father.
This is the meaning and purpose in my life, my family. My wife and kids and our grandkids are all devout christians while I and my 2 sisters are atheists. We’ve figured out how co-exist with our 2 very different life philosophies. You don’t need a fucking imaginary friend to help you get through this one life that we get to live. Screw everybody who says otherwise.

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That sounds line him, arrogant blowhard who’s inexplicably pleased with the sound of his own voice.

The Hitch debated him once, chewed him up and spat him out. The real irony was that Lane Craig didn’t seem to realise how thoroughly The Hitch had rinsed him.

The high point for me, low point for LC, was when he tried to redefine atheism as a belief that needed faith. The Hitch told him atheism like amoral and asexual indicated the absence or lack of something.

Lane Craig just looked like a small child in an English class he didn’t understand. I still smile at the recollection. He loved to make the claim that atheism required more faith than theism. As ludicrous a piece of sophistry as religious apologetics has ever devised.

This sums up Lane Craig’s egregious brand of faux philosophy…

Faith is not good enough for some, however. Some foolishly think that they can deductively prove the existence of the (particular version of) God they believe in, and even go so far as to think they can demonstrate that their particular brand of religion is undeniably true.

Particularly egregious examples of the latter include supposed proofs that Jesus rose from the dead.

Sounds familiar…

Now, I should note, apologists are not philosophers (even if they happen to have a degree in philosophy). Why? Well…First, philosophy is the love of, and as Socrates and Plato taught us, the prime defining characteristic of someone who is wise is intellectual humility—one must not claim to know that which they do not, and also gladly admit when they have been proven wrong.

Yeah that sums up Lane Craig, and the egregious wannabes he’s spawned, you see them here sometimes and just know they’ve seen LC and are impressed so much they’re parroting his BS. I wouldn’t be at all surprise if @Drich had read or seen LC and found it impressive.

In philosophy, everything is open for debate; no question is taboo, no topic off limits. More specifically, when philosophers first see a new argument, no matter how controversial the subject matter, they approach it with an open mind. They let the argument stand or fall on its own merit.

@Drich needs to read and grasp that, he might have an epiphany, and develop some intellectual integrity, though it’s a big might given his arrogant stridency and how impressed he is with his own opinion. Who calls themselves an “expert” in the open exchange in online debate ffs, it’s the Dunning Kruger effect writ large right there. A real expert at debate would know that such a ludicrously arrogant piece of sophistry has no place in any honest debate.

Anyone take a look, as I say it sums up LC nicely, but so much of it applies precisely to the apologists we see here, @Drich is fresh in my mind and it sums his flawed rationale up exactly, like this:

The apologist, however, takes the exact opposite approach. They look at an argument’s conclusion first. If it agrees with what they believe, they will champion it; they might make it stronger if possible, but would never reject it because of its flaws. If its conclusion contradicts their belief, they go on a mad hunt to find and proclaim any error any way they can (often misinterpreting or ungenerously reinterpreting the argument to make it easier to attack).

William Lane Craig; Is he still alive? This must be junior, the one I’m thinking of would be about 100

A couple replies to that: So fucking what? and Who put him in charge of deciding whose life is worthwhile?

My life is worthwhile to me. Same goes for most human beings imo. It’s 50 years since I needed my toxic Irish catholicism for there to me meaning in my life. On reflection, I never needed it in the first place. I was conned into believing I did.

I don’t need superstition to find interest, appreciation of life and joy on a regular basis. Imo the purpose of life is itself. I don’t mean in the crude sense of individual ego. I mean that kernel, that spark, found in all living things, which we call life.

There’s some interesting debates on Youtube with Craig vs Chris Hitchens and another vs Richard Carrier.

Craig seems to be just another presuppositional apologist.

Below is link to one of Craig vs Hitchens . :“Does God Exist”

I return to a favourite quote:

"I was not.
I was
I am not
I don’t care " (from an ancient Roman tomb on the Via Apia, not far from Rome)

I miss Christopher Hitchens, he had a way of dismantling his opponents so easily it was always fun to watch.

It’s well-known fact, Boom, that William Lane Craig is one of America’s foremost and deluded Christian zombies. Besides that, the mendacious piece of shit is only 71 years old.

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That is one of the best life goals I have ever heard of. One of the most important things in the world is to learn how to pat yourself on the back for a job well done. Too few people actually know how to appreciate their strengths. I’m sending you a genuine ‘CONGRATULATIONS’ from the other side of the globe. Your post even makes me happy,.

Oops, silly old me. The debate of which I was thinking was the1967 TV debate between William F Buckley jnr and Gore Vidal in 1967. Buckey famously called Vidal a queer and threatened to punch him in the face. That event set the one for future Tv debates in the US.

His oratory was impressive even when his point wasn’t the strongest, what I liked most was his command of language. His written prose was nothing short of dazzling, even when I thought he’d lost his mind, which wasn’t very often.

When I think of purpose I think of “what makes me happy to contribute”. I’ve always been of a mindset to do as many things possible that bring me excitement/peace (not the jump up and down “excitement” but the inner tummy butterflies and lit-up eyes).

@mr.macabre …I can relate to the loss of physical ability to just gain “pain”, physical limits, etc. Re-inventing ourselves and letting go of previous “identities” is a fucking difficult process. You now get to be a grandpa :older_man:t2:- like a great, fucking memorable grandpa! You get to show how hard work throughout life pays off, and your wife gets the reward of having the “best” you after all the decades you both “grew together”.

I learnt from my mother-in-law a valuable lesson. I was a JW and my (then) husband had converted in his late 20s. His parents were Anglican and not happy about it. His dad was OK - ohhhh, BUT his mom despised me and JWs (however, I always thought she was the personality type that would have found some reason to despise me anyway, just JW was the handiest). OK - the lesson

She had money tucked around the house in hidee-holes (around 10k). Never used her dishwasher. Never used their fireplace. Never ate out. Shopping with her was “just walking and window-shopping”. She rarely smiled or laughed. Great to her friends, treated her family like shit. Her “reasoning” was she was going to do “everything” (trips, buy stuff, use the dishwasher etc) once her husband retired.

He did retire at 65. The house was paid in full and he was now “free” to do things with (in her mind???) and money could now be spent (well, sorta…). She died from lung cancer 6months after his retirement. Diagnosed to death in about 6 months. NO cruise (she always talked about)… which was suppose to be their first indulgence as retirees.

Anyway, he remarried about a year after her death. A great older woman who was NOT a neat-freak, spent money and ate out. He spent about 7 years with her before his death. Cruises, dancing clubs/classes, chef classes (she also was a shitty cook, so he smiled and learnt). She died about 3 months after him.

The lesson I learnt as a JW, whose “purpose and meaning” was “to serve Jehovah”…was life’s meaning is to be lived. I had seen how she “put things off” for a future retirement. It had hit me mentally that I was “putting things off” for a future promised paradise.

It was one of those things that ate away my “faith” (I had no valid reason to NOT be living the one life I KNEW I had).

You just described my mother except the cancer was (no alcohol related) in her liver. Never enjoyed much of anything,

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Yah - she didn’t smoke.


Spent the twenty years I was with my ex, paying off everything, working 50 to 60 hours a week, while she worked part time, in the last 6 years I had started to save, and though she had nothing to pay beyond a share of a grocery bill, she had failed to do so despite my warnings. Months from having enough to retire she left me for someone else, and took all the savings.

I’m not saying financial prudence isn’t a good thing, but plans can always go wrong, most especially if your partner or spouse has a very different plan.

Oh, and always get a fucking prenup, anyone who objects then dump them. Divorce solicitors and courts are not interested in what romantic intentions you once had.

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I view money like breathing or food. In and out. I have savings and investments and a house that’s paid in full BUT I enjoy spending also. We budget as a family (once a week takeout), watch the dollars (which add up)…and save for vacation splurges or a couple of annual weekend getaways.

ONE other lesson I learnt (when I was literal near death) was regret. That’s a bugger. NOT doing the things you wanted to experience or be. IF I was to die today, I’d die pretty satisfied- just wishing I had more time to see the boys as adults.

That’s a pretty common assumption made by a lot of Christians. There’s a guy I work with that made this same opinion towards me as well as accused me of having no morals because I’m not a Christian. You’ll find most of them ask the same questions, make the same judgmental remarks, and make the same claims as you’ve seen on here. It’s as if they’re reading a script.

Kind of like how we ask them to provide evidence and they ALL say that they provided evidence in their claim or that they don’t have to give evidence on that God is real. They pull this shit every damn time.

They think if you don’t worship their fictional and imaginary deity then you won’t amount to anything in life. That’s pretty shitty. I’ve come to realize that they don’t live in the real world like we do. They think they do but most of them really don’t.

Same here. It has always been my philosophy to live life for the memories. I don’t have many pictures of myself or my activities, and I don’t collect autographs. Those pictures and autographs are stored between my ears, in my head.

But I have met relatively famous people, and instead of clamoring for an autograph, I seek to engage them as people. For example, many years ago I attended the motorcycle show in Toronto, and wandering through the booths, there was Don Vesco in the Kawasaki booth. He wasn’t that busy, and I walked up to him and we started talking. He was frequently interrupted by autograph seekers, but we sat there in chairs and talked for over two hours, about racing, his experiences, all kinds of shit. I did not get his autograph, I got something much more, I made a true connection with this sweet and wonderful man.

Don Vesco holds the FIA and BNI International records for a turbine vehicle at 458.440 MPH on the Mile (the fastest record ever timed by FIA for a wheel-driven vehicle).

I have read the “Never have I ever…have you?” thread. First off, everything in there is cool. But I have been in situations and places that absolutely rock. I do not want to play the upstaged game, but wow, some of the crazy stuff I have done and been in is the stuff of books.

All of those are wonderful memories now, which I recall with a smile. Maybe at the time there was no reason to smile, but now, I can.

Creating memories is one of my “purposes”. I have other purposes, such as giving my wife the best life I can deliver. But no one tells me what to do, and no one dictates what my “purpose” in life is.

What did I do this last weekend? I participated in the “24 Hours of Spa”, and online race that went a full 24 hours with driver swaps, day and night, all kinds of crazy shit happening. Fucking near put me in the hospital, and I’m still completely exhausted. But every morning I wake up and look for a new adventure.

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but what of those who did not have children and or grew up in a horrible situation due to no fault of their own? if the purpose of life is to find contentment in family/propagation then what does this say to those who can’t/dont have family?

I think what mr craig is saying is that without God there is no legacy or greater purpose for man than any other animal. That nothing we can do will have a lasting impact on the universe as a whole. again he is not saying you can’t propagate or have a family as is the task of all species to one degree or another. but rather this is the upper limit to our species.

Even other men have pointed this out. Elon Musk in fact has made and is spending billions in an attempt to send man to mars because he sees the end date for life on earth as all of our resources are finite and the population exponentially grows. As people like yourself finding and full filling their life’s purpose without God is creating the problem Musk will spend trillions before it is all said and done.

but even then the terraformation of an entire planet if not a pipe dream would take hundreds if not thousands of years, to bring the point where life is self sustaining.

As appose to being with God, Man/the saved is set to move out into all of creation/the universe and serve God.

I don’t think that is what he said, you’re merely interpreting it that way. It’s pretty difficult to measure contentment between humans and other species, but since no one has ever demonstrated any objective evidence for any deity or anything supernatural, Lane Craig’s claim is entirely a hypothetical, and personally subjective one.

That is a purpose some people attach to their life, everyone has to find a way to add purpose to their own lives as best they can, as there is no objective evidence for any overarching purpose beyond what we ourselves create.

That makes no sense sorry, people like yourself, do you mean atheists? My atheism has nothing to to do with Elon Musk’s desire to create a mission to Mars, why would it.

Calling the universe creation is pure assumption, unless you can demonstrate some objective evidence to support the claim, and religions have had thousands of years and failed to do so. The god of the bible is no more supported by any objective evidence than Zeus or Apollo, and the bible couldn’t even get the most basic chronological facts about the formation of the universe and our solar system or the emergence of life remotely correct. So fantasising about theists moving into space is pointless.

Humans have already been to space and to the moon, and science and mathematics is what got them there, and if they go further into our solar system or beyond it, like the probes that have done so, then again it will be science and mathematics that achieves this, not religion which has taught us nothing new in thousands of years.


That is YOUR purpose and reason. It is not mine, or should be pushed on others. I do not tell others what to do. Religion attempts to set boundaries and “purposes”.

Isn’t it interesting that this action by mankind is based on nothing but science? god not required. You can’t pray your way to the Moon.And isn’t it interesting that this supposed god who supposedly knows all and created this planet and people totally fucked it up, to the point where mankind has to contemplate creating colonies off-planet? And isn’t it even more interesting that the bible does not describe this universe accurately, that it is a flat disc-shaped Earth floating on water, heaven above, underworld below?


That is the critical point. For any skeptical mind to accept that “god’s purpose is for us to breed”, then first, one must establish there is a god. Until then, one may as well accept that Bugs Bunny dictates our purposes.