If you are interested

I wrote this a few days ago, and I would like to share it with you. Hopefully, some of y’all might like it

It is not a miracle by any means, but it is a wonder, and it may help reveal some parts of my current perspective.

Nathan, the children, and I were taking our evening walk with our pup, when Sofie asked us about four leaf clovers.

Nathan will 43 this year, and having never seen one immediately declared that they were a myth and did not in fact exist.

I, having seen one then declared that they were in fact, real.

Sofie being the youngest child, and having never seen one either, remained quiet.

Nora, however stooped down and began to search amongst the large patches of clover that lay beside the path which we were walking.

Now, Nora trusts both Nathan and I and respects our various opinions. We’ve always told her that we would give her the full circle of our combined experience, but that contrast between two people’s opinions that she trusted and no experience of her own to draw from, caused her to search for the truth of the matter herself.

To know Nora, is to know a wholehearted believer in everything that is happy and good.

Within seconds, she found a clover large enough for both she and her sister to hold in their hands at once, dispelling over 4 decades of disbelief and a breach between the perspective of two loving parents in an instant. Never again can Nathan deny that :four_leaf_clover: do in fact exist.

If this honest question from an innocent mind had not been raised perhaps Nathan would have lived out the rest of his life, never looking again for something he at one time truly wanted to find.

Unlikely that he have even noticed one, despite how little or how many might have been hidden amongst the flowers of the field because he did not believe in them.

And I, his loving wife would have been none-the- wiser.

Had I known, perhaps it would have remained: my word verses his.

Which of us was correct? Nathan, in using his experiential knowledge, or I, in using mine?

I tell can tell you the answer is wholly dependent upon the presence of childlike wonder. Without it, neither perspective would have borne the fruit of truth.

It took the faith of a child to bridge the gap for everyone involved. We all learned a lesson that day: a sincere attempt to search a new experience against adversity found exactly what we were all looking for.

Keep an eye out for the little wonders hidden amongst the ordinary, my friends!


I’m uncertain what’s to “debate” here, but you do have a weird way of perceiving life. Not surprising, really.

It is interesting that each of you relied on just personal experience. Did you ever consider going to other sources, such as Google, any scientific journals, or the testimony of others?

Neither, each of you did not draw on other sources of information.

I live in a big city and it saddens me that many spend their lives inside their cellphones instead of just putting it away and just observing what is in front of them.

One day I was standing at the bus platform that led from the subway. The bus platform faced onto the back of a mini-mall parking lot, separated by a chain link fence. As I was standing there, I saw a hawk capture and kill a pigeon, just 60 feet away. As it ate the pigeon on the ground, I glanced around to see who was also watching. No one, no one even noticed what was happening.

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Haha… that is actually a great point! We don’t often use our phones on our walks. Nathan usually leaves his at home.

BUT, if I had looked it up, and found a reputable article about four leaf clovers, I don’t think it would have had the impact that actually finding one and holding it in their hands did. The kids acted like they found a pot of gold, rather than a tiny plant. For sure, the children would have accepted what I read them about Trifolium repens, but I KNOW it wouldn’t have had the affect on any of them the way actually looking for and finding one did. Especially, Nathan. He is rarely surprised.
His face was priceless which had a ripple affect on all of us.
It was more than just finding a clover for us.

That is incredible, and is precisely why we take our quiet little walks with the kids. Who knows what the future will look like. For this small slice of time, I want my children to actually see the world they live in.

We freed a beautiful lunar moth from some netting the other day and it flew around beside us like it was grateful the entire way home even though it was the morning.

Now, my youngest draws moths and butterflies into almost every picture.

City life cannot completely obscure natural beauty. It’s always there.

@David_Killens Here is my encounter with two hawks that were viciously battling and almost fell into the busy street. In retrospect, I probably wouldn’t have intervened. They probably were well aware of what they were doing. :woman_shrugging:t4:

What if she had not found a four-leaf clover that day? What would have been the outcome?

It is wonderful to discover things, but is it as nice to not know?

There is a wonderful world out there, and more information than one’s brain can absorb. Currently I am closely following the SpaceX rocket factory in Boca Chica, Texas, ITER, World Endurance Championship, the technical aspects of warship construction (just the machinery, I do not glorify war), same with aircraft, astronomy, astrophysics. I was involved in Citizen Science projects in mapping Mars and presently searching for brown dwarfs.

Even at my advanced age it is a warm feeling I get knowing that in my very small way I am contributing to mankind’s knowledge base.

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More Magical Thinking from the muddled land of Woooooo?

HOW MUCH AREA DO YOU NEED TO FIND A FOUR-LEAF CLOVER?

Patch of white cloverIf the odds of finding a four-leaf clover are truly 1-in-10,000, how much area do you need for 10,000 clovers? I really had no idea if it was the size of a field, or a typical backyard. This point is where my 8 year-old daughter and I had some good, hands-on science fun in our backyard while learning about estimating.

As you can see in the picture, we measured out a six-inch square and laid it over a patch of fairly dense clovers. As we picked the clovers on the top layer, we noticed there was another layer of clovers below it, and another one below that. After we picked all of the clovers out of the square, we counted them.

That quarter of a square foot patch had about 200 clovers. Doing some simple math, we estimated that there are 800 clovers per square foot and 10,000 clovers can grow in just 12.5 square feet (1.2 m2). For the 1-in-100,000 five-leaf clovers, you’d need 125 square feet (11.6 m2).

We both thought it was going to be a much larger area, which would make finding them more difficult. However, you don’t need to scour an entire field to find a four-leaf clover. Instead, you can expect to find 10,000 clovers in a 3’ X 4’ area. That helps to explain the ease that some have of finding them!

EVER TRY READING A BOOK?

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@Tia_Thompson No one has ever seen Caticorns or Leprechauns. Does that mean they exist? :confused:

Duh! You can’t prove they don’t exist and they are mentioned in the bible. Remember singing “Zacchaeus was a wee little man, and a wee little man was he?” Clearly, this is a reference to Ireland’s height-challenged mascots.

The member of the Sanhedrin who visited Jesus one night was the enchanted Irishman Nick O’Demus.

Moses’ staff turning into a serpent? It was a shillelagh, the magical walking stick brandished by every self-respecting leprechaun.

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@Cognostic What an hands-on and interesting project!
We were walking our pups, but that might make something fun to do today. It has been sweltering here, but at the moment it isn’t terrible. Thanks, for the idea!

There is a mystery I would investigate, instead of just assigning “being grateful”.

There is a reasonable explanation for everything.

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HEY LOOK! We crushed one of the moth’s wings, rubbed off all the scales, and now the thing can only fly around in circles. It must be thanking us. FACE PALM!

@Cognostic we didn’t touch it. We just lifted the netting and let it fly to wherever it wanted to go. Well, back to the tasks at hand. Thanks, again for the clover idea. It really does sound fun.

In the OP, I think Nora was introduced to the idea of holding a belief (and making a positive statement based upon that belief) despite a lack of awareness of the best available evidence on the subject, or whether any evidence exists at all.

I am encouraged that Nora decided, when presented with differing positions on a subject about which neither parent is expert, to investigate further by observation.

The next step is to teach about types and strengths of evidence and to seek what stands as the consensus of very smart people in a scientific field that applies to the question at hand, IMHO.

My $.02.

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@David_Killens I have an astronomical question when I get a chance. Maybe you can answer it for me.

Go ahead.

The Moon is moving away from this earth at a rate of approximately 1 1/2 inches a year.

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No. A lightyear is NOT a measure of time. And, yes, our solar system as a whole DOES rotate around the center of our galaxy.

This enforced pause has given me time to ponder life. I do appreciate Tia’s big heart, but saddened that she ascribes positive human traits as coming from her god.

Her fist visit here was about helping an old lady in financial housing crisis. She went far beyond what anyone should expect, but gave praise to her god instead of realizing that it was her, and JUST her that did good.

And on this recent sojourn in this forum, she believes that the ability to love comes from her imaginary friend jesus.

This is an aspect of religion that makes me despise it. People ascribe good and bad behavior and acts as being driven by a god instead of owning their actions.

@Tia_Thompson You are a good but confused person. But it is you, not some jesus that makes you a good person.

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This enforced pause has given me time to ponder life. I do appreciate Tia’s big heart, but saddened that she ascribes positive human traits as coming from her god.

Her fist visit here was about helping an old lady in financial housing crisis. She went far beyond what anyone should expect, but gave praise to her god instead of realizing that it was her, and JUST her that did good.

And on this recent sojourn in this forum, she believes that the ability to love comes from her imaginary friend jesus.

This is an aspect of religion that makes me despise it. People ascribe good and bad behavior and acts as being driven by a god instead of owning their actions.

@Tia_Thompson You are a good but confused person. But it is you, not some jesus that makes you a good person.

@David_Killens

Hello, David. I hope you’ve had a peaceful week. The intense Memphis heat was a pussy cat yesterday as compared to what it has been, and I was able to spend a goodly amount of time outside, tending our fruit trees and playing with the children.

For what it’s worth, I do appreciate your sentiments. I am also pleasantly surprised that you mentioned Mrs. Jordan. I talked to her just yesterday and she is doing great. She has been able to get out in her new garden with her granddaughter recently and is eagerly awaiting her 92nd birthday.

Like you mentioned, I too have been doing quite a bit of pondering about life and it’s winding vicissitudes, and I have a few sentiments of my own to share. That is, if you still care to know them.

In the meantime, here is a video. I am not a Mormon, but I agree with the message. This is how I feel.