Agreed because true.
But the New Testament does make worship voluntary. So humans have the dignity of choice. Where Christians have tried to impose belief they have acted contrary to New Testament teaching and have been in error.
I am thankful that I don’t live in a country where the state seeks to impose belief or unbelief as the case may be. Very thankful.
Larry
Yes , but I need 20 characters to post.
Larry
Treating others as you’d want to be treated is just basic human empathy. It is essentially the Golden Rule, which predates Christianity (and Judaism). It has origins back to the 6th century BCE and there’s evidence of it in ancient Egyptian texts before that.
Christianity is not alone among world religions in appropriating pre-existing ideas and concepts and then claiming to be their inventor and protector.
You cannot look at a region of the world where Christianity has long been dominant, and then assume that everything virtuous arose because of Christianity. Association is not cause.
Compassion and empathy are concepts that exist outside of Christianity. They are my touchstones … and I’m an atheist. While it’s true that I came from fundamentalist Christianity, which pays much lip service to compassion and empathy (for the right kinds of people, but not for the Hated Other; that would be “Woke”!), but I never understood what those things really meant until I could disconnect them from ideology and make them conditional only upon another person’s humanity.
Memorial and Remonstrance contains 15 points to consider in arguing against tax support for churches in Virginia after the American Revolution.
Virginia had an established church prior to the Revolution and Jefferson and Madison had both witnessed some very real wrongs as a result.
The summary would be that the state must leave the mind free because the citizens first duty is to the God that person’s own evidences and reason shows him is true.
It compels the state to recognize that:
“Before any man can be considered as a member of Civil Society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governour of the Universe”
I think it is a tremendous document and has been used by the US Supreme Court as an interpretive tool.
Larry
I wonder how you would answer Franklin.
It seems to me that Christians are fallible humans as much - or more - ,perhaps - as any other. But - look , I don’t know - perhaps your upbringing had more to do with the development your compassion and empathy than your think???
Maybe Franklin was on to something?
I was not raised in a religious home of any sort. My faith certainly encourages me to help support compassionate organizations. But I recognize that many have sacrificed much more than I.
I am also able to recognize the compassion that non believing folk show through many organizations.
I have had at least two doctors who are openly Gay - may have one now that is not so open , at least, not yet - I would consider one of them to be a good man. Don’t hate the other one - or two of them?? - but don’t have the relationship I had with the first one.
He moved away from my area for personal reasons and is missed.
Larry _
Do you not understand the question or are you attempting evasion or humor? ← rhetorical question.
So……
Do you think a non-Christian spirit/soul/essence/whatever ends up in your heaven or your hell after dying? Please choose from the following list:
A. “The heaven I think exists”
B. “The hell I think exists”
C. “I don’t know”
Yeah, that’s because it seems to be hardwired. And not only in humans. Several other animal species exhibit empathy and compassion. So to attribute such traits and emotions to the teachings of a particular religion seems quite inane.
I am not trying to be humorous. The software demands at least 20 characters.
Do I believe heaven exists and that believers will go there ? Yes
Do I believe Hell exists and non believers will go there? Yes
That is A and B.
C : Could I be wrong? Sure
Larry
Some academics are researching whether humans are hardwired to believe in God as well.
I could see that but it would not cause me to doubt the validity of my faith.
The Bible says we all have the knowledge of God but suppress it. So for me it would be a validation if they could prove it.
Larry
I wouldn’t be surprised if Homo Sapiens is genetically predisposed to make hasty conclusions based on (faulty) pattern recognition, as an inherited survival mechanism, and that this culturally develops to attributing agency and life to inanimate objects. And so on to polytheistic religions and monotheistic religions. Such cultural inheritance does not, however, imply that the beliefs embedded in this culture is factually correct.
That would be a hasty conclusion based on little or no evidence. And no, the bible is not evidence, but rather the claim.
Edited to add: I think it is important to distinguish sharply between a genetically predisposed tendency to attribute agency to inanimate objects on the one hand, and the culturally developed and maintained ideas of a god and a religion on the other. Although the former can, through cultural reinforcement, lead to the latter, history has shown us that no two cultures develop the same religion independently. Yes, there are certain common traits between religions, but those can be attributed to cultural diffusion. Thus, the idea that a genetic predisposition to believe in supernatural stuff does not validate your particular religion.
Next question: Does it make a difference on how one behaves?
Please answer succinctly.
Of course it does.
Larry
So, if a non-Christian behaved generously, fairly, supportively, honestly, honorably, never hurt anyone on purpose, was an all-around decent person, didn’t steal, didn’t engage in gluttony, was far from lazy, would they go to hell?
Please answer succinctly.
Not sure why you’d wonder that, as my post literally did that.
Empathy and compassion and kindness are not Christian (or even broadly theistic) qualities; they are human qualities. They are a function of possessing working mirror neurons.
That is not to say that some flavors of religious observance couldn’t possibly help a person develop these qualities; nor is it to say that one can’t develop them without religion. It is just to say that religion or theism doesn’t explain them and is not a necessary ingredient to have them. Some lower animals possess these qualities. I’ve seen videos of a half dozen turtles teaming up to turn a turtle over that has gotten itself onto its back and can’t right themselves, for instance. I’ve seen film of Orcas mourning their dead.
I had a conversation with a believer once who conceded these points but argued that Christianity is the most efficient means of transmission for conveying and developing these virtues. I did not find him persuasive in terms of the general case, but I could see that in specific individuals who are especially responsive to certain rituals or teaching styles, that Christianity could work well for them. But I don’t think they would become depraved without it, either.
In general, Christians flatter themselves that they are the “salt of the earth” in some special or particular sense that, say, Ghandi or Rumi were not.
I don’t know your particular Christian leanings. You seem rather more tolerant, if not outright accepting, of difference than I was taught to be. Whether this is because of your faith or if it’s simply what attracted you to your particular hermeneutic, I wouldn’t pretend to know. But what I’m pretty confident of is that there’s nothing unique to the evangel that is a necessary ingredient for you to develop empathy, compassion, kindness or acceptance toward others. And there is a LOT in Christianity that CAN readily be interpreted to make you a controlling asshole, which speaks to the argument others have made that some Christians are nice in SPITE of their Christian beliefs.
Finally, there’s the issue of the failed epistemology of religious faith. I don’t see that as being helpful, and may even cause one to do the right things for the wrong reasons. Beliefs that are based on credulous acceptance of unprovable assertions have, in my view, led us to the ruin we’re now experiencing in America. “Let God be true, and every man a liar” may well be the epitaph on our collective tombstone.
Not by itself. But when science agrees with what we find in the Bible it is a
tiny piece of evidence - evidence being different then proof - no it does not prove. But agreement is reassuring rather than otherwise.
My faith does not depend on agreement between science and faith but it is nice when it does.
Regarding just this specific issue though I would regard it an evidence though not a proof.
Beware that correlation does not imply causation.
Aliens coming to America must swear and oath to become a citizen. Such a person as you describe would make a fine friend or neighbor but would not be a citizen of heaven, in my view.
I had a doctor a little while ago who was gay. He moved away from my area for personal reasons. I liked him as a person and miss him as a doctor.
But I would not be at liberty to say he is in possession of eternal life. A fine man, a good man , I have no doubt. But not a saved man.
vs
So, the character you worship as a god, and think is all loving and all just, would relegate a person to a hell merely for not worshiping it?
I find that ever so narcissistic.
When combined with all the other behaviors it exhibited in the bible stories, I find it murderous, selfish, egocentric, unjust, brutal, and an all-around bad guy.
You say this god of yours exists. I say I don’t believe you.
I’ll add that if it did exist, I sure as fuck would not worship it.
This is, however, a very clear sign that the religion in question (or at least that part) is conjured up by humans that want to use the religion as a powerful tool for controlling people; “Believe what we tell you, and do what we tell you, or else you will burn in hell for eternity”. A very powerful control mechanism indeed.
Indeed. Xtian Nationalism is all about control.