If God Existed, What Would He Be Like?

Debate Room
83

Please provide examples of what you consider good and demonstrate how it came from Christianity and not elsewhere.

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84

Thanks for pointing out the quote function.

I think the idea that God only accepts voluntary worship is one good that I treasure.

It is one of our “inalienable rights” - rights that come from God.

Christians are told in the New Testament to offer their reasons for belief. They are to persuade not compel. For worship to be true worship it has to be voluntary. Otherwise its just submission.

I think this implies that God has endowed humanity - individually and collectively - with dignity and worth - because we are allowed the freedom to chose.

Larry

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85

I will only point to a letter Franklin wrote to Paine.

https://cooperative-individualism.org/franklin-benjamin_a-warning-against-publishing-the-age-of-reason-1785.htm

“And perhaps you are indebted to her originally, that is to your religious education, for the habits of virtue upon which you now justly value yourself. You might easily display your excellent talents of reasoning upon a less hazardous subject, and thereby obtain a rank with our most distinguished authors. For among us it is not necessary, as among the Hottentots, that a youth, to be raised into the company of men, should prove his manhood by beating his mother.”

My apologies to the Hottentots if Franklin got their practices wrong or misunderstood their culture.

Which way it went would be a matter of interpretation. But I think two things have arisen in Western Civilization because of Biblical Presuppositions - political freedom and systematic science.

Political freedom because of the presupposition that Mankind - made in the image of God is endowed with dignity and the freedom to chose - implying that God respects people enough to allow them to do that - and therefore so should the state to a , large extent , anyway.

Science because God is both free and rational and created man and nature to reflect freedom and rationality.

The Biblical teaching also promises the regularity of nature. That what is discovered to be true today will also be true tomorrow.

I think these presuppositions were operative in Denmark for much of its history and accounts for much of the good that would be seen there today.

I also think I have probably posted a few things here that would lead to further discussion.

Larry

86

What do you think happens to non-Christians upon death?

87

LOL. Political freedom, freedom of thought and freedom of speech appeared DESPITE the bible, DESPITE religion and DESPITE religious influence. Remember, you do not need to go too many centuries back before you could be severely punished for having opinions that did not agree with the officially sanctioned religious dictate. Same with modern science, see e.g. the processes the catholic church started against Galileo Galilei because he dared suggesting a heliocentric solar system, instead of the geocentric one that the scientifically ignorant clerics insisted upon. See also the spiteful resistance against the theory of evolution, which is among the very best documented and verified scientific theories there are.

Besides, many civilisations around the world, like the old Greek, made remarkable scientific discoveries before the bible rag was even authored.

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88

The Gospel means “Good News” because for those who chose to believe it is very good news.

Unfortunately - and I wish I could get around this - but I cannot - there is very bad news for those who don’t chose to accept.

What I can say is that if the New Testament is true God does not wish that anyone should perish.

I think of it this way.

Any of us might invest a substantial amount of our total wealth in a stock. We would naturally want that stock to prosper. We would be very disappointed if it failed. Especially if we had invested something approaching our life savings in it.

If - for the sake of argument - let’s say that the New Testament is true . If that is the case - and please notice all the “ifs” - then God has invested His own suffering and His own life into doing everything he can to insure that people - anyone - has the chance to chose life.

He has to be very disappointed when they fail to do that. Disappointed when they fail to believe. And after such an investment.

Why was that investment needed?

Because the Bible teaches all of God’s attributes - whatever God is He is that perfectly. Perfect love, perfect justice, perfectly Holy ect.

But we are not.

As an atheist you have your own set of beliefs about what is true and right and good.

I am willing to bet that if you really think about it you have failed to 100% of the time to do the good and avoid the bad.

Perfect justice would require some kind of judgement.

We do not need or want to experience that judgement. And we don’t need to.

If the New Testament is true - Jesus took that judgement on Himself for each of us - if we believe it. But before that He led a perfectly obedient life.

At the moment of true belief we get that perfection attributed to us - God does not see my failures but Christ’s perfect obedience.

I believe all of this - but I don’t expect you to. Its really all a matter of presuppositions and I hold a whole set of them than are different from yours.

You apparently don’t see any reason to believe if God or the truth of the New Testament.

I see science telling me about the Big Bang. At the tiniest fraction of a second
I see gravity, electromagnetism, the strong force and the weak force coming into existence. The have just the right strengths to interact in such a way as to
allow for all of physics, chemistry and life to happen.

I see this as an act of God - you see it as a co-incidence.

I see human life for every individual extending into eternity - you see it as terminal after a few years.

But here is a question for you :slight_smile:

Think about what goes on in your brain when you do math. What is the process - is it only a physical process contained in our minds? Then why
does it have such tremendous explanatory power for what is “out there”?

There are much more well trained people then me that can explain the reasons for faith.

But explanations and facts get interpreted through our presuppositions.

I found this debate very interesting. You may too.

Listening thoughtfully should either confirm you in your presuppositions or cause you to maybe consider Christian ones.

Then you could maybe think seriously about the afterlife.

Larry

89

I cannot defend the wrongs Christians - if they were such - have done in the name of Christianity.

But I would ask you to read Madison’s " Memorial and Remonstrance".

It was a document written to Christians by Christians - in the sence that Madison was representing a gruop of " New Light" Christians at the time he wrote it.

He was in the Virginia Assembly and they were his constituents. The document reflected their thinking.

Larry

90

I asked a simple question that should have been answered with one sentence.

You are starting to preach. Preaching is not allowed. Consider this a warning to stop using this debate forum as a pulpit.

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91

Don’t EVER tell me what I think!

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92

Instead of asking me to read a lengthy document, why not give me a summary of the parts you think are important, together with your interpretation?

I’m not a US subject, being born, raised, educated and living+working in Europe, so US first amendment stuff is not something I have had to relate to, or need to relate to, except as to an academic exercise in trying to understand what makes the US tick (or–given the past events of the past few months–to go off the rails).

Besides, the first amendment is somewhat faulty, in that it doesn’t give people the option of freedom from religion.

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93

I am sorry about that - I meant what I imagine you or others might think.

I was busy trying to think about how to reply to an important question - what I think is an important question - but also one I would want to avoid.

But if in my reply I ventured some wrong guesses please correct me.

For instance I could be wrong about how you might think about the moment - the tiny fraction of an instant about when the Big Bang occurred - that might be wrong - how do I know? - I don’t, of course.

But how do you account for the forces being just what they are, considering if they were just a little different we would not have a universe - I think that is what science is telling us.

Again please don’t take anything that I might say about your thinking in the future to mean that I think I know anything about you. I don’t, of course. I am focused on how to reply and trying to be respectful. I can assure you of that
but it may not always seem that way.

Larry

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I meant how I might think or imagine about the way you might think.

I am not trying to put words in your mouth either but just trying to have a conversation.

Larry

95

Then try answering a simple question with a simple answer.

96

First Amendment

First Amendment Explained

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

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The golden rule predates the Christian religion, and the epoch depicted in the gospel myths, by centuries. There is evidence to suggest it was present in ancient civilizations like ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia, with the earliest examples dating back as far as 3500 BC, with variations appearing in ancient Vedic Indian traditions. Confucius, who lived in China between the sixth and fifth centuries BC, also articulated a version of the Golden Rule.

Can you demonstrate anything to support this?

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98

This is subjective religious belief, and of course even the notion of good and bad, beyond a broad consensus, would be subjective ideas. Also, it is demonstrably untrue of many religions, that belief is not mandatory, and throughout human history, right up to the present, there are many parts of the world where what religions offer is not a choice.

To quote the late Christopher Hitchens

"“Many religions now come before us with ingratiating smirks and outspread hands, like an unctuous merchant in a bazaar. They offer consolation and solidarity and uplift, competing as they do in a marketplace. But we have a right to remember how barbarically they behaved when they were strong and were making an offer that people could not refuse.”

Choose what, believe or be tortured forever, that’s not a choice, and since there is no objective evidence that any deity exists, it is doubly not a choice. Even if such a deity existed, what it would be “offering” is morally repugnant to me, vicarious redemption, anyone gets an eternity of bliss, no matter what they’ve done, anyone who for whatever reason doesn’t accept or believe, gets an eternity of torture.

I am relieved there is no objective evidence for any of it.

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99

Despite not being a US subject, I am fully aware of what it says. Besides, that’s the text of the first amendment itself, not an explanation of it. Besides #2, I asked for you to give me a summary of the document you referred to (“Memorial and Remonstrance”), not the law text.

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100

Christians throughout the US are trying their best to destroy that protection.

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101

You asked a question that has bothered me for years. One that I wish I could get around. I am a Christian , which means I believe the Bible. According to the Bible humans are a two part creature - part of us physical and part of us spiritual.

The physical part is doomed to die and decompose. I find this to be a repulsive
thought but it is reality.

The Bible tells us that we are already dead spiritually - not preaching here. That is just a fact that I am obligated to believe. When we come to believe - if we do - we are brought from spiritual death to spiritual life.

So I believe there are two states and two destinations. So I believe there is heaven and hell.

But there is only one reality that we all find ourselves in and try to make sense of.

I try to explain that we do that based on our philosophical commitments.

We interpret the facts of reality based on those prior commitments.

We live on a planet that is teaming with life. It seems to be a very special place
placed in a universe that has a set of very special physical properties.

A theist would see the life and physics as evidence of God. Atheists would not or they would not be atheists. Theists see plenty of evidence - to us the world abounds with it. To atheists not so much.

It is a matter of philosophical precommitments.

What are yours? How do you think they differ from those that other atheists might have?

Larry

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@Papabear48…
FFS…let’s try again. I’ll rephrase. Do you think a non-Christian spirit/soul/essence/whatever ends up in your heaven or your hell after dying? This question requires a one word answer unless you choose “I don’t know.”