I learned something disgusting today

Debate Room
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You review it, then present it for us to subject to critical scrutiny, I am not doing your research for you, I responded to what you presented, which was a bare claim, and very dubious one.

As I pointed out, so if you have something else then present it, if not then I am content to disbelieve the claim, as the claim that fascism and socialism are of identical origin is also demonstrably wrong, since the origins of socialism predate those of fascism, and the origins of fascism are quite complex.

“Fascism’s origins are complex and include many seemingly contradictory viewpoints, ultimately centered on a mythos of national rebirth from decadence. Fascism was founded during World War I by Italian national syndicalists who drew upon both left-wing organizational tactics and right-wing political views.”

CITATION

“The first modern socialists were early 19th-century Western European social critics. In this period socialism emerged from a diverse array of doctrines and social experiments associated primarily with British and French thinkers—especially Thomas Spence, Charles Fourier, Saint-Simon, Robert Owen.”

CITATION

Your ball…now have you got anything beyond bare erroneous claims? If I were a gambling man I know where my money would be.

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Or you could demonstrate objective evidence for your claim, instead of laughably expecting others to research them for you.

Which demonstrates that you don’t know what socialism means. As I asked you originally, and you ignored of course, how is a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole, seeking to control individual minds exactly?

You never answered, quelle surprise.

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Even if so, here are some more ‘modern’ nations that subscribed.

https://www.hitler-archive.com/speeches.php

https://www.historians.org/about-aha-and-membership/aha-history-and-archives/gi-roundtable-series/pamphlets/em-18-what-is-the-future-of-italy-(1945)/the-rise-and-fall-of-fascism

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While this will doubtless strain credulity regarding any organized (esp. formal gov) sources:

In that this is in relation to the formal imposition of socialism in modern nations, and resulting in a world war the expectation you’ll encounter them encounter them by chance without my involvement is not unreasonable. Go for any sources that were keeping track in real time. Also not unreasonable.

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Did you have a point? A string of links again and not one salient word from you as to how you think they support your claims.

Quote where you think that link supports your claims, that a) socialism and fascism have the same origins, and b) that socialism is all about controlling individual minds. those were your claims.

One more time, I am not researching your claims for you, offering links with no explanation is not debate, nor does it support your arguments and claims.

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Aw cmon @Sheldon at least have a look I did. The link to the National Archives was to the home page and I didn’t bother to drill down certainly there were no lists of countries. @PhilJohnson Phil please check that your link takes the inquiring mind to the point you want to make. The second was about the rise of white supremacy in the West and its links to Nazism in Germany. It was an interesting article. However the only mention of socialism was this snippet:

“In the 1920s and 1930s, Nazis were, in part, defined by their opposition to communism. After the 1917 Bolshevik Revolution in Russia, Germany seemed vulnerable to the spread of communism, particularly after a communist uprising in Berlin. The Weimar democratic government was unstable, and its economy was in shambles. In their struggle against socialists and communists, fascists and other right-wing groups exploited the fact some prominent communists were Jews to harness antisemitism for their cause. Longstanding false links between Jews and Communism also underscored antisemitic conspiracy theories about Jewish global domination.”
Note: @PhilJohnson perhaps you missed the comma after communists and before fascists leading to an erroneous conclusion. Those damn commas will derail a “good” argument every time. As an aside there is a great book on the subject titled Eats, Shoots and Leaves: The Zero Tolerance Approach to Punctuation by Lynne Truss. Look what power a simple comma has it can change the meaning of a sentence as the title of the book shows.

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Yes, as many here could attest, I, although not alone in this, insist on using punctuation, probably to excess, though that would be an arguably subjective assessment.
I recently used an example of my cats wanting to be fed…
“It’s time to eat, Daddy” as opposed to “It’s time to eat Daddy”. :flushed:

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Oh for fuck sake! I never thought of that. When my cat wrote me that damn note “It’s time to eat Daddy” I just XXXXXXX (The kitty cat is no longer with us.) It never crossed my mind that it could have been a punctuation error.

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A good example where a pen in the wrong hands, or in this case paws, can lead to disaster. Or perhaps, the pen should have been laid aside in favor of the sword. Were there any feline witnesses?

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I heard that the kitty cat was longer than the cats it was living with, but since we relocated it to another cat community, the kitty cat is no longer, with us…

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You can relocate them? I didn’t know that. DAMN. I could have avoided all the carpet stains.

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But then what would you have had for dinner?

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Uh, Tuna Cat-serole?

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And of course, another reason we know that the Nazi Party was “socialist” in name only, centres upon the fact that one of its prominent members in the 1930s was none other than Hjalmar Schacht, as ruthless and hard-line a capitalist as one could wish for, who also spent two terms as President of the Reichsbank.

Schacht was instrumental in arranging for the Nazi Party to get into bed politically and financially with big business, most notably the arms manufacturer Krupp.

Indeed, through the Mefo Bills scheme Schacht concocted, no less than 12 billion Reichsmarks were loaned to the arms industry without increasing the money supply. Krupp was, of course, a huge beneficiary of this scheme.

Krupp also hoovered up vast profits by taking ruthless advantage of slave labour in concentration camps, to an extent that even raised eyebrows among senior Nazi politicians.

For example, Airey Neave’s account of the Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunal, devotes an entire chapter (pages 32 to 41 of my hardback copy) to slave labour at the Krupp plant in Essen, and gives a chilling insight into the viciousness and cruelty that was endemic to the Krupps over three generations.

Neave notes the stark contrast between the slaves in the Krupp labour camp being driven to gnaw bark off trees in desperation, while Gustav Krupp dined off solid gold plate.

Gustav, and his son Alfried, who increasingly took over at the helm of the Krupp empire as Gustav succumbed increasingly to dementia in 1945, clearly took a sadistic delight in the practice of inflicting nameless horrors upon their unfortunate slaves.

They were not alone among hard line right wing nationalist businessmen in Nazi Germany, with respect to ill-treatment of slave labourers, but Nuremberg found the Krupps to be singularly vicious.

With regard to profiteering, several big businesses made fat profits from Schacht’s Mefo Bills scheme (said scheme covered in pages 172 and 173 of my copy of Neave’s book), and greased Nazi palms eagerly in order to secure juicy contracts before World War II erupted in earnest.

Indeed, it’s a hallmark of fascism, that it very quickly jumps into bed with corporate money. As happened under the Nazis (and even more so under Mussolini), trade unions are stamped out, and corporate bosses given free rein to pursue naked greed.

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Well fascism and socialism are mutually exclusive,since the former is characterized by a dictatorial leader, and centralized autocracy, whereas socialism is defined as social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

Not that this clown seems to have a clue what either of them means, or when they first originated and under what circumstances. It’s like he’s been exposed to some sort of propaganda using a false equivalence fallacy that equates ideas he perceives as bad as all having a common origin and bazic ideology, it’s hilarious.

No doubt he is going to torment us by dropping in periodically to repeat his absurd claims, whilst steadfastly avoiding evidencing them, or addressing any objections offered. I really don’t see any epiphany by him as being on the cards, but still one must live in hope.

Indeed, the only reason the “little corporal’s” nefarious enterprise ever got beyond the planning stages, was precisely because rich industrialists thought they could control him and his movement to suit their own rapacious ends. Sadly when your country is bankrupt and you put everyone to work created military capability it has eventually to be paid for, and that military capability must be used to filch that money from countries that have it.

Most of the antiquated equipment in a large car component manufacturing plant where I did my apprenticeship came out of Germany after WWII, and the sign outside that plant know has the word Krupp in the name. Funny how things seems to go full circle, but just as Germany’s economy was pretty much bankrupt before the war, so Britain’s was after it. Money destroying the Nazis was well spent though, one would have to admit. Still ironic I qualified as an apprentice patching up old Krupp heavy presses. Ah happy days…

But but but, Nazism v’got socialist in its name mun??? :face_with_raised_eyebrow:

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The most repressive countries like to give themselves names that are really fooling no one. Whenever you see a country named “The Democratic People’s Republic of XYZ” you can be guaranteed that this country is neither democratic, a republic, or gives a shit about the welfare of its people.

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For a change of direction: Yesterday I attended a Celebration of Life for a really lovely person. She and her husband helped us when my wife was fighting for her life against fucking cancer. A battle which she ultimately lost. News that our friend died came as a shock. Out of respect for her and her husband I attended her C of L even though her daughters had decided to have it in the local babtist church. I mean how bad could it be, right? I had never been in a babtist church so wasn’t prepared for the next two hours. The good parts were: the eulogy delivered by a long-time friend who absolutely nailed it. It was so good that I looked for her after we were released but apparently she beat me to the exit, another point in her favor. My friend’s daughters talked from the heart about how great a mother she was which was also nice. A trumpet solo that was a bit jazzy in a melancholy sorta way was also very nice. The last good thing was a slide show which as a photographer I enjoyed. These items took about ½ an hour or less.
Interspersed with these good bits were prayers thanking god for creating my friend. Now I always thought that the process of making babies came about when a sperm knocked on the door of an egg which softened enough for the sperm to enter which evolved into an embryo. And so began the dance. But no, the pastor explained that god was in the middle of that act of creation and deserves a round of hallelujahs and if that isn’t enough to creep a person out he also implants a plan and to activate this plan you only have to give yourself over to Jesus. So anything bad that happens is god’s plan so don’t worry hallelujah and the good that happens to you – that wasn’t you that was god’s plan also. I have no ideas how many babies are born each day but god is a pretty busy guy.
Oh and there was other things as well: Did you know that in heaven god has prepared mansions for each of us assuming we are accepted by the membership committee. The long and the short of it was that with the singing praises to god and the thanking god for creating my friend and the plan that made her such a good person I thought I was going to explode trying to hold back my laughter and alternatively my outrage. A few giggles got loose but for the most part I managed to keep my friend centermost in my mind. Thanking god 1½ hours, remembering my friend ½ hour.

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That has always been my theory. And on the days the babies are born with deformities or life-threatening conditions, god was listening to football teams or helping someone find their car keys.

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Or testing their parents faith, LOL…

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And there was singing. This church had two huge screens and several loud, and I mean loud, speakers for their karaoke machine. From the outset you couldn’t hear the singer because the pastor thought the music wasn’t loud enough so then she started to sing even louder which meant that the music got dialed up. Honestly babies and young kids were crying it was so loud. And what’s with this waving arms in the air? I kept looking at what they were pointing at but didn’t see whatever it was. Was that like beckoning their invisible god to join in the singing?He most likely wouldn’t have been heard over the din. At any rate, he never did show up, probably because he was too busy rushing from one womb to the next passing out plans. The pity I thought is that amazing grace is pretty nice song, and would have been more fitting in acapella.

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