How to support Christians afraid of becoming a monster once they leave faith?

Debate Room
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Hi friends,

How do you support Christians that are too afraid to leave their faith or even question it because they fear once they stop believing in their God, they’ll become some sort of monster that goes around on a killing spree and raping every man/women they see on the street? Or worst, they’ll revert back to what they were before becoming Christian - probably a normal person that enjoyed what mostly people enjoy.

I keep coming across people from the churches I had attended in the past and I can noticed in their speech how they emphasize what piece of s* they were in the past - actually, mostly were not, but church told them to thought like that - and how blessed and better they are now. But some are already not so sure about their faith - this pandemic hit really hard on some people’s faith -, yet they fear what awaits them on the other side - incredulity, skepticism, etc.

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When others would leave the JWs and were disfellowshipped - wow the congregation gossiped, judged, “knew” (again gossip on every misdeed was an indication of their worldliness from when they were a JW) and so forth.

For some, leaving a religion is leaving a community and knowing how you will be viewed by those who once loved you. For others it’s an emotional blanket… for some it may be the only “filter” they have for not doing bad (because that’s what they believe)…

I lean towards protecting humans. If the only thing stopping one person from harming and raping and killing another person is their faith in Bronze Age ideals :woman_shrugging:t2:

You know ‘cause those Bronze Age ideals didn’t include rape, murder, bigotry, incest, abortion, infanticide, jealousy, lying, slavery…

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Sadly, many theists have it pounded into their heads that morality and purpose in life comes from their god, and without him, we would just go nuts, killing and raping without concern.

Here is one short answer.

Do dogs believe in god?

The long range solution is to teach people that morals do not have to come from a god, and that we do not need a god to give us a “purpose” in life.

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I understand the question about “dogs believing in god”, but I am afraid some Christians might reply a big “yes”. Some church theology teaches that animals not only believe in god, but worship him.

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How do they know? Have they asked the animals? If they claim they can talk to animals, wouldn’t that kind of be sorcery, and therefore prohibited? And do animals living with christian people believe in the christian god? Do animals living in the hindu culture sphere believe in hindu gods? Which god or gods do wild animals that have never encountered humans believe in? Are there any atheistic animals? Should animals that stop believing on a god be put to death for apostasy?

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There you go - no marriage, incest, infanticide, killing, cat shit eating, ass sniffing and ball licking are all moral!

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How they know? It all ends up with “because the bible told me so [insert here some bible verse]”. I am not defending their position. I am just saying that asking if an animal worships god is not a good argument for morals. Christians will say “yes, animals worship god, because the bible told me so” and then we go down the path “how do you know the bible is true?”.

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I can hear a Christian replying to it with “but but but what about the sin entering the world and contaminating everything in it including animals?”. Then we start asking about evolution and how sin entered animals before the human race even existed. The Christian’s answer to that will depend on his belief regarding evolution and old/young earth.

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But some church theology teaches that since man was created in the image of god, only man has a soul and can enter heaven.

Theology = bending the argument to support a pre-determined position.

For those theists who truly believe that without their god they will become murderous rapists, I do everything I can to encourage them to remain in their church.

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I hold the same position. “Please, do not leave your church, specially if you are my neighbor”.

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Bottome line for me… If a person tells you that they would be a murdering, child molesting, hateful, burglarizing, bank robbing, drug using, gang banging, wife beating, rapist were it not for his or her belief God. LEAVE THAT PERSON THE FUCK ALONE.

Next: For those that are questioning their faith… “Leave them the hell alone as well.” Do you like it when the Christians come knocking on your door? Do you appreciate street preaching? Do you like the asshole on the street who ends a conversation with “Have a blessed day?” or “Praise Jesus/” What is your reaction to those sorts of people? Why do you want to be one? Just stop! Stop worrying about other people and their lives. Stop worrying about what they believe and why. BUTT OUT. It’s not your business. Don’t “convince” them of anything. Stop trying.

What you do is show up as yourself. Just be who you are. If they ask, you can share. When they are curious, answer their questions. When they make overt comments, “Praise the Lord” in public, I like to assert “And all the other Gods too.” Something to just get them off track and thinking.

There are times and places for challenging. There are times and places for just being a human being. I have a friend who is a Christian and the only time I have really sat with him and challenged his beliefs were when I was invited to do so. We have sat down twice now and talked about his faith and I have known him for a year. He knows he can sit and talk with me. He knows that he is my friend. And he certainly knows that we have different ways of looking at the world around us.

There is an old saying that I love and I am sure it comes from one of the ancient philosophers but I do not remember which one… It probably turns up in many ancient writings. “When the student is ready, the teacher appears.”

I have used this theme in many of my teacher training programs as I try to convince teachers that they are not teachers. Teacher is a job tital but not who they are. Standing in front of a buinch of people and spounting shit they do not what to listen to, does not make you a teacher.

I go into a little routine where I place a marker on a table and invite people to try and teach me to pick it up while I completely ignore them. I sing songs, pick my nose, go to sleep, start conversations with other people and ask if I can go to the bathroom, all while they try to show me how to pick the marker up off the table. You can not teach a student who is not ready to listen. If you are working harder than the student, you are doing something wrong. Learning takes place in the mind of the student and not in the mind of the teacher. Finally; people have the right to fail. People have the right, not to understand you. They have the right to find their own way. Let them do that.

Learn to just be there for them, but in the end… You have to let them find their own way. Don’t be an ugly Atheist. You don’t have to convince anyone of anything. We do not have a magic book that tells us to go out and convert the masses. Be yourself and be willing to share… it’s enough.

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I have encountered issues adjacent to this in my personal and professional life, and dealing with such things isn’t easy.

The military–for example–screens recruits for “spiritual fitness,” and outspoken atheists are rejected . . . and also kept from promotion, as a leader is expected to pray with his soldiers before going into battle, and the thinking is that extra casualties may result if the soldiers perceive sarcasm and/or a lack of sincerity in this process.

This has caused problems in my EMS career, as an atheistic paramedic is perceived to have no moral compass, so is less likely to care about his or her patients’ needs.

I was denied promotion–in part–because I refused to participate in religious functions, so I couldn’t be trusted.

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At the heart of this “fear of adverse moral consequences” is the idea that every religion (except–perhaps–for Buddhism) sells itself on the claim of moral superiority. Most of Christianity is like this, most of Islam is like this, * and Judaism claims to be “chosen by G-d.”

So, it isn’t a stretch to equate abandoning a religion with abandoning morality.

I have always believed that it is not only possible–but probable–that an agnostic or atheist person can have a higher sense of morality than a religious adherent, as an agnostic (or atheist) person is more likely to challenge sacred truths.

The reason why challenging sacred truths is important is because life-saving practices like lightning rods, condom usage, washing one’s hands before attending a woman in labor, and learning medicine by the dissection of dead human bodies all came from challenging sacred truths.

Our quality of life has dramactically improved because visionaries rejected certain religious values.

If anyone feels that their morality will–somehow–just magically disappear because they reject religion, then please point these things out to them.

  • Islamic values during the Middle Ages was very different from the Islamic values of today. Islam used to value scholarship, writing, record-keeping, the opend exchange of ideas, and public debate. The Islam of the middle ages was much more tolerant than the Islam of today.
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If dogs could read they wouldn’t worship any god. None of the Abrahamic religions have favourable opinions about dogs. They are always described as mongrels, jackals and curs and considered threats and lower than swine, always dirty, impure, and evil.
The best the Egyptians could do was give Anubis, the undertaker(!), of all things, the head of a jackal.

All the dogs I ever owned were confessed atheists except for the dyslexic boxer who thought he was a god. He was a mutt.

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Was that Islam or just Arab culture? When Islam took over, the roof caved in on science… My understanding is that there was a return to fundamentalism… It would be like allowing Christianity to control the US government…

Al-Ghazali believed that the Islamic spiritual tradition had become moribund and that the spiritual sciences taught by the first generation of Muslims had been forgotten. This belief lead him to write his magnum opus entitled Iḥyā’ ‘ulūm ad-dīn The Revival of the Religious Sciences, Among his other works. The death of science was largely due to a return to Islamic fundamentalism. Islam killed the golden age of Islam.

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Early Islam valued scholarship for it’s own sake, as scholarship and learning were considered to be religious values.

We have advanced mathematics because Islam gave us “Arabic numbers” (actually borrowed and modified from India) and algebra (itself an Arabic name), Rhazes was a Muslim physician whom happened to be the most accomplished doctor known from the Middle Ages, and Islam preserved some of the literature of Greco-Roman antiquity . . . and returned it to us.

As sometimes happened, these seeds of enlightenment withered and died instead of taking root.

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Remind them that around 97% of prisoners in US prisons believe in god, yet that somehow didn’t stop them from committing crimes.

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Interesting notion.

I was taught that animals do not have souls. That consequently they do not have free will. Be no problem to have them instinctively recognise and obey the divine.

Very different in religions which believe in reincarnation. For them a person who really fucks up may reborn as an animal. Have no idea how that works. Probably a good question to ask the Dalai Lama.

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There are two different Islams. Saying Islamic culture gave us this or that is committing an equivocation fallacy. It’s like saying “The United States is a Christian nation.”

The Islam that accepted science was based on neo-platonic idology. Around 1100s, al-Ghazali lead a counter-movement called Occasionalism. A fundamental Islamic movement which held that science and math were attempts to remove God from the world. The same shit the Christians are spewing today. The movement grew into the Islamic world you see today and it made math and science into blasphemies.

This is what happens to us, when the Christians take over the government. Everyone looses and we remember the Golden age of Computer science and space exploration in songs and chants around camp fires as we sharpen our spear tips against stones.

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Interesting notion of a dysphorian future. Not fussed because it’s very unlikely I would survive the war.

Here I segue into a couple of TV revues:

Have been watching a TV series called ‘See’: There was a virus which killed off all but 2 million people. The survivors were left blind.

Humanity survived blind for 200 years. It divides into tribes and small kingdoms. Every now and then a sighted person is born. They are considered witches, and burned alive, along with anyone who helped them, often their entire tribe.

I was able to suspend disbelief for 4.5 episodes. At that point I found it hard to believe entire groups of blind people survived for 200 years. Plus that not one person in 2 million would initially retain sight.

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((9)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Second series: Mini Series: Nine Perfect Strangers, with Nicole Kidman*** trying but not quite succeeding to lead a pretty fair cast. I’ve been looking for the perfect word to describe her and it: “Dreary” fits the bill. It’s a health spa, run by an immoral guru/new age/damaged Nicole Kidman. (she drugs their food without telling them, as part of the therapy)

Some one was paid to write that drek, which is a shame, but not surprising. Imo, there is one stand out performance; Melissa McCarthy.

No matter how low the bar is set, Hollywood will continue to produce the worst crap as long as there’s an audience. Currently, I think the unending series of Marvel films is a pretty good example how bad movies can be.

*** Nicole looks heavily worked upon and anorexic. Pretty much how a skilled mortician would make her look for the viewing, imo. And yes, I have always liked Nicole. I thought she was one of the world’s great beauties and a fair if not fantastic actress…

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