And all of them are right Brother Cog, hallelujah!
Just so.
Never fails to bemuse me how so many make that prognostication with visible schadenfreude.
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So Bobby quit today.
And there was a lot of complaints about him. Mostly about his religious bullsh*it standards. Jerry complained and then another guy named Brian who is non practicing. The word is that Bobby is a crazy religious idiot. All he does is preach his superstitions at people. I don’t like him. His beliefs annoy me. He’s just a silly Christian.
Brian said that Bobby came at him and asked him if he was “saved” and he said yes. Bobby then went on to ask “Saved by whom?” and of course Brian gave him the answer that most Christians probably would accept. But noooo. Not Bobby. Brian’s version of “God” was not Bobby’s version of “God” so he starts preaching at Brian lol. Pissed him off. Anyways, Brian walked out on him the worse that debate got.
Brian told me that Jerry won’t stay in the same room with Bobby. He got up walked out and went over to another building on the car lot that we work at.
Because Bobby cornered Jerry in the kitchen and wouldn’t let him leave and tried domineering his version of his God onto poor Jerry lol.
Evidently. The guys at work got a kick out of my petty debate with Bobby. Because I don’t believe or buy into his bullshit.
On his last day. He was preaching at a friend of mine. I walked in and said “Talking about your imaginary friends again?” and he just automatically looked upset. He just looked at me and said “What?” and I just smirked at him and said “You heard me.” and I just kept walking. He couldn’t win a religious debate with me if he tried. He can’t provide evidence of any kind. Stupid 27 year old boy. The rest of the day he just gave me this serious look. It wasn’t dirty. But I could tell he did not like me.
There was a Bobby in one place I worked. Aggressive evangelical whose surly demeanor did not relfect the supposed joy and light so often advertised as a gift for belief in a god. He insisted on the Word of God being inerrant and eternally powerful.
After being chastised for preaching to people on company time, he took to leaving written fire and brimstone sermons and bible quotes on the lunchroom notice board. He made a huge mistake in leaving one quote, which he assumed the godless heathens he worked with would never notice. It was Samuel L. Jackson’s made up quasi-Ezekial verse from Pulp Fiction.
The godless heathens may have not read the Bible much, but all of them were avid Tarantino fans and learned about the curious rewording of what was one of the most forceful quotes from the movie.
He was told that after having espoused Jackson’s biblical threat, he now had to blow someone away, as happened in the movie, who would it be? He glared around the lunchroom and said, “Its a damn hard choice.” Not suprisingly we never saw him again after that.
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We had a “Bobby” turn up when I was writing for a Mining Equipment Supply Company. The company was Finnish, operating all over Australia and, of course, globally.
They recruited worldwide so it was like a mini UN in the workplace. I loved it. The induction was very hot on racism, tolerance and understanding different cultures.
This guy appeared seconded from the Pittsburgh branch. I think he must have missed the induction when our mob took over the company that was operating out of the US. He had a short version when he arrived in Perth as all overseas employees on secondment had to have.
He was not my supervisor or, for that matter anyone’s in the section. First week he calls a before work prayer meeting. Attendance 1 Catholic Indonesian. Who in the politest way tells Bobby to fuck himself. Then “Bobby” calls for all employees on the floor for a lunchtime prayer and thanksgiving for the latest project…WTF??
Some guys went for a laugh (and they did) Me? No I was on contract…fuck any non work activities unless they involved alcohol or travel to site…
Next morning he is set up in the hutch behind me, he’s an engineer and is praying over the fucking drawings!! Then he asks me after numerous requests from me to keep his voice down, or OFF, he wants me to insert a paragraph in the copyright and foreword of the maintenance books I am writing. All about the grace of god and the salvation of jesus making the job safe…I noped and ignored him. He just droned on in the background. Sending me emails with suggested text. I must be christian cos I was white and originally from Scotland…right? That’s like instant dismissal right there.
Fast forward 6 days, all the other engineers and draftsmen and women arrive back from site…uh oh…by 4pm each of them had gone upstairs and lodged a complaint with HR over this guys emails, personal invasion of their space and his haranguing them. He actually asked each of them their religion FFS!!! Then loudly praying for their conversion…
One yorkshire maintenance engineer bodily picked him up (that’s a no no) and placed him solidly back in his workplace with a strong suggestion he keep to his area.
I went to my boss an Indian fellow, lovely man, I assumed Hindu but who the fuck cares right? He took it to HR along with all the emails and handwritten notes this twat had passed me.
Next morning at 9am, a posse of HR and one of the Bosses from Finland arrive and escort this twat from the building. Watch him pack and escort him to the airport.
Apparently he then caused a nuisance on the plane, tried to picket the Pittsburgh Office, sued them for unfair dismissal and lost…and still sent emails to me about jesus and salvation. Had to get IT to ban his IP.
Some people just don’t get it!
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WOW!
Worst I had was a newly minted pentacostal chap. He would exclaim “PRAISE THE LORD!” at regular intervals, for no apparent reason. He was told that this was a work place and that his religious utterances were a distraction and that he should cease and desist. He ignored that.
One morning after he’d started again I took him aside. With all the sincerity I could muster, I looked him in the eye and said softly unto him: " Mate, if you don’t stop your bullshit I will punch your fucking lights out"
Yes, I know, my bad and am going to hell. He didn’t know I was bluffing, so the threat worked. Still wrong of me. I realised and felt guilty about it later.
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My Christian friend tells me he is praying for me every night. I remind him that he is proving “prayer does not work” each and every time he does it.
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Oh absolutely!
God always answers every prayer. The answer is always no.
YES! Prayers are like wishes. They never come true.
I wonder how these “praise the lord!” types would react if their work colleague at the next desk would shout “ALLAHU AKBAR!” at regular intervals?
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I’d pay to se that.
Here in Oz, the rest of the office would probably gang up on the Muslim. If they realised it was just piss taking, they’d probably join in. 
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Ordinarily I’d point out there is no objective evidence that prayer causes the wish to come true. Only post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacies that assume correlation is in fact causation. However I’d need to add the caveat that there has been at least one double blind clinical trial to test the efficacy of intercessory prayer, and the results showed no discernible difference between those who were prayed for and those who were not, ipso facto it did not work.
Incidentally there was one anomaly in the trials, which involved the recovery of post op heart patients. Some of the trial group were told they were being prayed for, and they actually faired worse on average than those not prayed for, and those who were prayed for but not told.
I shall now sit back and wait for a wandering theists to scoff at the idea that their deity can be tested, but miss the irony of theists readily participating in the trials both as subjects and as the instrument of their deity by praying.
Call me an old cynic, well I am anyway, but I suspect had the result gone their way, such objections would suddenly become irrelevant as they completely reversed that position.
Special pleading fallacy, ahem.
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True. I haven’t come across anything that makes wishes or prayers come true or found any kind of evidence that wishes or prayers exist.
Maybe if a Theist presented undeniable evidence or a magical object that you had to touch to make your wishes or prayers to come true? Then we’d have something.
But alas, no Theist has squatted and produced any evidence of any kind. Most of them claim their Bible is evidence and just quote scripture and use their beliefs and claim “those” are evidence. Those are the main arguments we deal with on here. The two biggest arguments I’ve seen is about the Bible claimed as evidence when it’s not. And then the other argument is the Theist claiming that “God” is real without backing up “that” claim.
[quote=“Sheldon, post:32, topic:1980”]
Only post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacies that assume correlation is in fact causation. [/quote]
Only? Not sure. I agree that fallacy is at the base of the faith of many believers. The church uses it on an official basis.
I think claims of miracles certainly include a post hoc fallacy. I also think one or both psychological states are present at least some of the time with virtually all believers. Viz; cognitive dissonance and [with miracles especially] confirmation bias.
Well, yeah, of course. Imo being a cynic and a skeptic are among the most rational ways to look at life. 
I try not to speculate on what evidence theists might be able to convince me with. However the only credible research into the efficacy of intercessory prayer I’m aware of showed it had no discernible effect.
Yes, I am very familiar with the penchant most theists have for misrepresenting claims as evidence. I also always ask for objective evidence, I could add the word empirical I suppose, but I don’t want to rule out pure logic, though of course I don’t believe that it is rationally possible to argue something into existence. Especially since the theistic arguments I have encountered nearly always contain or are based on, known logical fallacies.
Of course, if experience hadn’t shown us religious apologetics are holding an empty bag, then we probably would not be atheists.
However I try to apply the same epistemological standard to all claims, and making absolute claims would by necessity set a very high bar for sufficient objective evidence. I can’t claim to know prayer never works, how could I ever hope to demonstrate sufficient objective evidence for such a claim. However I can state I don’t believe that prayer works, as I am not aware of, nor have ever seen a demonstration of, any objective evidence. I also cited some credible research into the efficacy of intercessory prayer, that showed in that instance that it had no discernible effect.
The most commonly used logical fallacy for claiming prayer works, are post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacies. These equate correlation with causation, another common mistake theists make all the time. They also wrongly assume improbability implies impossibility in natural random events. Ironically they genuinely seem to think adding inexplicable magic from an unevidenced deity out of a bronze age superstition, is a more probable explanation of an outcome that seems improbable serendipity, than just random natural events. Natural events of course that we know are possible, something we cannot claim for supernatural events.
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I had one Theist tell me this when I told him to present physical and objective evidence.
He said: “The sort of evidence you require is beyond the realm of ‘faith’.”
Do you know what he means? Because I don’t.
Although my personal definitions on “proof of a god” differs slightly, I use the “same standards as a court of law” when defining such.
That simplifies my argument and almost everyone comprehends what a court of law requires for evidence to be submitted and accepted. And it keeps out the truly bullshit arguments.
Well, one can problematize this phrasing. Referring to the “same standards as a court of law” alludes to using similar decision processes as courts of law. Courts of law tend to stick with their decision, even if new evidence has been presented in the case after the judgment. Secondly, courts of law use precedents as an important tool, where once a matter has been settled, it creates a pattern or analogue for other similar cases and to judge them in a similar way, downplaying the actual evidence or arguments. But deciding on matters of existence/nonexistence of a supernatural phenomenon or a god is not a matter of giving way to precedents, but more like looking at the actual evidence, and not decide to believe in them, just because it is tradition to do so.
Pretty confident that claim is untrue. However, I’m on tenterhooks waiting to see how you will demonstrate the truth of that claim.
Be fascinated to learn how many people in the US understand the legal definition of probable cause, or even say the laws about carrying concealed weapons
I’ve known about half a dozen lawyers socially. Each had the same opinion, that the law has little if anything to do with justice… For that reason, I’m unable to accept the requirements of a court of law in any practical sense.
As a broad general principle, I use science and scholarly method to determine if I’m able to accept a claim.
I have no idea what evidence for the existence of god I would be able to accept. Not my problem, I’ve made no claims. I expect a putative creator god with infinite attributes would have no problem coming up with evidence I could accept.
Faith is the antithesis of evidence, theists often use this kind of redundant tautology, it strikes me as a deepity. Simply put they were saying no, I cannot demonstrate any objective evidence.
This prompts some obvious rational questions:
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Why would a deity create us with enough intelligence to see faith can validate literally any belief or claim, then insist we use it alone to believe something as important as that deity’s existence?
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If that deity intervenes in the physical material universe then the effects can be examined for objective evidence, for example a geological record of a global flood.
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If that deity doesn’t intervene in the natural material universe why do theists bother praying for help, and why does the bible claim it did this time and time again, and why do christians believe in miracles?
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What couldn’t one believe using faith? Including of course a faith based claim that their deity didn’t exist, which by their rationale is equally valid, thus creating an obvious logical contradiction.
That’s just off the top of my head. Though of course if one has accepted the vapidity of faith as a valid reason to believe something, then any rational discourse is pretty much negated. See question 4…
We have on occasion heard theists claim that no objective evidence is possible, these make me laugh, and I usually ask them if the claim that the earth is not flat or at the centre of the universe is an objective fact? They thrash about a bit, but that pretty much exposes the idiocy of their claim.
Here is something to ponder, if the entirety of scientific knowledge were extirpated. and humans started the slow slog from towards their discovery again starting from complete ignorance, those scientific facts would all be exactly the same.
Almost as if their validity has nothing to do with our perception of them. In fact exactly as if that was the case.
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