Sheldon,
I don’t recall a scene in 1984 where the Proles quarrelled over replacement of Big Brothers, but I suppose it would be possible. Either President could function as Emmanuel Goldstein for each opposing side. No matter who prevails, Monster Energy Drink is still the gin and cloves, there’s still a Junior Anti-Sex League and secret police, and “We have always been at war with Eastasia or Eurasia or something, something.”
I was thinking more Animal farm…a fledgling socialist revolution hijacked by autocrats…
Or in this case a relatively young republic…
I’ve always found that set up rather astonishing. Here state schools are controlled by the sate. Curriculae are set by the state. End of year exams are set and conducted by the state. I’m not sure to what extent individual schools decide what books are suitable for their library. When I was at my Catholic school, the church had an official list of banned books. [and films] None of them would appear in the libraries of catholic schools. Of course, Australia also had strong censorship of books and films at that time
OF course school libraries still censor books. EG one will not find say Lady Chatterley’s Lover or the books of the Marquis De Sade. I don’t remember seeing any books by John Steinbeck, J D Salinger, Jurt Vonnegut nor even perhaps the greatest anti war book “All Quiet On The Western Front”. Not even Catch 22 .
Of course I left school in 1964. I think a few things have changed. EG Catholic schools are no longer allowed to belt the living shit out of the inmates. Here in Oz it is an offence for an adult to strike a child. Even parents, technically. In reality I think parents continue to behave as they have always done, across a wide spectrum.
Boomer47,
Except for De Sade, all those other titles were available in my school. The local Books-A-Million does have De Sade, though, as well as Playboy, Penthouse, and other adult magazines in the high shelf.
Although censorship anywhere is rotten, at least local censorship doesn’t go beyond that locality. And kids always do grow up and can buy any books they want as adults.
Of course, when national groups like Morality in Media or The Catholic League or the NAACP or Radical Feminist groups put pressure on school boards or libraries or bookstores to censor content, this always demands a response from all who value free expression and free inquiry.
I agree with you, but as I stated before (not with you) my username is not about a mass burning of books to rid the world of all holy books. I am speaking to the individual, the ones like me that have been tortured with holy books, shamed, punished and locked away in a room because of an ignorant individuals belief in a “holy” book. To be honest I’m ok with everyone having their own opinion and idea of what my name means. I am still waiting for someone to ask me directly, or maybe they have and I missed it, either way I respect your thoughts and opinions.
-Dillon aka (burn the holy books)
Greetings, Burntheholybooks,
f
Ouch! My sympathies to you and all like yourself. If you suffered trauma from people following so-called “holy books,” you certainly are not obliged to keep the books that they used to torment you.
What I guess I would like to see are ways to counteract and fight that trauma in ways that aren’t purely destructive. Perhaps you could tell people which book it was your tormentors used, highlight the portions of the text, even give the text to others who could spread the word.
This would not only help you deal with your own pain, but keep others away from this source of pain as well. It would be a win-win for yourself, for others like you, and for promoting humanity in general.
Are you are claiming that it is therefore OK for you to burn book?
If so, that’s a logical fallacy called ‘a distinction without a difference’. IE IMO it’s not OK to burn books on moral or ethical grounds. Period. It is OK for say publishers to pulp or burn remaindered books they can’t sell. Do you understand the difference?
I haven’t asked because I don’t care… You have not stated you are an atheist. I therefore assume you are a believer of some kind. I could not care less about your personal superstitions.
I don’t mean to be unkind, but so far believers who have come here are batting 0:0.
So far not one believer has provided any empirical evidence for their religious beliefs.
I don’t know you, but you have not made much of a first impression. In fact you come across as disingenuous. Rather than baiting members, perhaps have a go at stating your actual beliefs and take it from there.
You can expect to be challenged. You will be asked to provide empirical evidence for any claims you make. If you are unable or unwilling to do that, what on earth are you doing on an atheist debating site?
Ball’s in your court Dillon.
In the USA: making districts small and having the funding that a district receives being a function of the income of the neighborhood the school is in; sets up a interesting system that seem almost designed to:
@boomer47
Are you in the habit of responding or commenting on things you do not care about? I would suggest if you don’t actually care what my name means, but choose to comment on it anyways, you should speak into a mirror. At least then you will only hear what you want to. Huh stating I am an atheist, I didn’t know you required such information. Honestly when I signed up I clicked atheist and in my humble opinion I have absolutely nothing to prove to you. My thought process doesn’t require others approving my actions within their own personal categories. Actually you couldn’t be more wrong, but choose to believe whatever your heart wishes. The fact that you believe my three first posts (make me disingenuous) speaks more towards your own biases than my “first impression”. Hmmmm I a disingenuous theist that is simply baiting members, I think not. But again, your feelings about what you believe I believe mean very little to me. I would argue I made enough of an impression to garner your replies, but as you stated earlier you have a habit of replying to items that are of no interest to you. So I will not chalk up a win. I would suggest that you relax, take a breath, and ask people questions before assuming, because you know what they say about assuming…
I’m not surprised at that, Heller has the main character Yossarian, make some pretty scathing comments on the god concept. One of my favourites:
“Good God, how much reverence can you have for a Supreme Being who finds it necessary to include such phenomena as phlegm and tooth decay in His divine system of creation? What in the world was running through that warped, evil, scatological mind of His when He robbed old people of the power to control their bowel
movements? Why in the world did He ever create pain?”
Yeah, it gets deep. A very clever book overall. Good film too…—love some of the characters. EG: Major Major Major . (his parents had considered calling him Sergeant or C sharp, but had settled for Major ) When he was in people were told he was out. When he was out people were told he was in. In that way he never had to see anyone.
I read one exceptional book from our school library. Can’t remember the title. It was about William Bligh’s stunning voyage to Timor after the Bounty mutiny. It was in a longboat with some loyal crew members. (1789). I was about 14,and discovered that Bligh was an exceptional man. He was also governor of New South Wales until the Rum Rebellion(1808). Fletcher Christian was apparently a quite nasty piece of work.
Seems appropriate given the Washington balagan.
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For many atheist regulars in here, names and labels do matter. Over time I have witnessed many sock puppets and theists attempt to sow confusion and discord because they are not honest.
This is a forum where a very contentious issue is continually debated. Anyone can jump in and contribute to any post, just as long as they are not violating forum rules.
Others have attempted to control who speaks in posts they created, and it always results in a grand mess. So please understand that honesty is expected, and you have to roll with the punches each and every moment because we are independent and critical thinkers.
Cat herding: An idiom denoting a futile attempt to control or organize a class of entities which are inherently uncontrollable.
@David_Killens
I understand that labels are important to some and many even require it prior to engaging, but I have never been one to conform. I do not simply change the way I communicate based on others feelings or emotional needs. I never said people should or should not post on topics. I said that if someone has a preconceived notion and doesn’t care about the topic, then why post? “Honesty is expected”…I agree, yet isn’t it funny that no one asked me questions, they asserted their belief of what my name means and even went so far as to state I am a theist! I am fully up for debate and talks, I love exploring new ideas and ways of thinking. So if by simply standing up for what I believe in (burning of holy books, by the people that suffered from them) makes me dishonest, disingenuous and a theist, well then, I really have nothing to say. If people choose to believe that I am trolling, then so be it. I am not in the practice of begging others for approval. To clear the air, I am 100% an atheist and have been one for most of my adult life, I grew up Christian and the Bible was used as punishment. I was forced to go to Wednesday bible study, youth groups, Sunday morning worship and Sunday night youth group. I hated the religion but feared the imaginary man in the sky, so I never pushed hard as a kid. At 17 I left home and started my own life, I jumped from house to house, couch to couch and stopped any and all communication with the church. Yet, I felt afraid and worried. Then at 19 I finally grew the courage to realize that I was brainwashed into being afraid. Ever since that day I have been not only against Christianity but also every single religion on earth. I have a passionate hate for them all. So no I am not trolling, and no I am not a theist in disguise. But I do have my own thoughts and opinions.
It is pretty easy to see where this confusion came from, IMO:
V.S.
@Nyarlathotep
I feel that’s very bias…I was speaking about a conversation that I had with my God fearing wicked evil step mother. Sure it had to do with God being real, but if that instantly makes me a theist in the eyes of people then those people might want to ask some questions to further understand, not simply write me off. I’m not sorry I triggered people, in my life I strive to make “good trouble”.
Moronic statement of the night. Good Job Burntheholybooks! You are the winner. So, what your saying is that everyone should be honest and post but for those people who have preconceived notions. Anyone with a preconceived notion can just 'fuck offf." And somehow you imagine that this does not qualify as a "preconceived notion. Honesty expected but certainly and quite obviously not appreciated. Ha ha ha ha … Fail
Um… How is your name not perfectly clear? “Burn the holy books.” People object to burning books. What in the fuck you you have to object to? You can not justify, muddle or alter the meaning of that phrase in any way that is going to make it acceptable to any person interested enough in the history of humanity to want to preserve that history, positive or negative.
Now we get into some bitchy whiny shit. "Waaaaa someone called me a theist. Waaaaaaa someone made an assumption about my name. Waaaaaa someone had a preconcieved notion. Waaaaaaa life isn’t fucking fair. Waaaaaa I am simply standing up for what if believe (MY FUCKING PRECONCIEVED NOTIONS WHICH ARE NOT THE SAME FUCKING PRECONCIEVED NOTIONS I WAS TALKING ABOUT WHEN I ASSERTED YOU SHOULD TAKE YOUR FUCKING PRECONCIEVED NOTIONS AND … FUCK OFF! )
YEP! That appears fairly obvious at this point. I agree. A pretty fair assessment. However; we all know you don’t actually believe it and you are going to go on and say something really stupid next. Let’s read on…
Okay, we will pause here., Emotional appeal… "Hey guys, lighten up. I really am just one of ;you. I just believe in burning books. The fact that I had a bad brush with religion as a child completely justifies my hatred of religion and not only the religion that I was a victim of but every other religion on the planet as well. I have held this PRECONCIEVED NOTION since I was 19 years old and you assholes are not ripping it out of my with your BULLSHIT LOGIC AND REASON now. You are the ones with preconceived notions… not me. My bible burning belief is based on rationality and reason. “Waaaaaaa I was an abused little kid who was forced to write bible versses…” “Waaaaaa I wanna burn bibles, I have a right to burn bibles, burning bibles makes me feel like I am getting even with the mean religious assholes that hurt me… Waaaaaaa waaaaaaaa waaaaaaaaa.” “My passionate hate is justified Waaaaaaaa.” "I am not a trolling theist… Waaaaaaa… " "My presuppositions are should be taken more serioiusly than anyone else’s presuppostions. Waaaaaaa. Don’t you understand!!! I have suffered! Waaaaaaa, "
One big appeal to Emotion fallacy. Please understand me and my rational. I’m hurting. SORRY KAREN - It is not enough to justify the burning of books. Nice try, here is your cookie, now go to your room and sleep on it for a bit.
@Cognostic
Whoops looks like I triggered someone…
Well let’s respond.
A) I have stated that if someone doesn’t care then why post…seems logical, but if I hurt your feelings please except my half hearted bull shit apology. Sorry sweetie.
B) how is my name crystal clear to you? Do you have an ability to know why or what or how? Do you do this to all the people you speak with? Hmmm, take everything at face value and seek zero more information… (because you know everything huh?) I believe that I could never explain to YOU that would make you understand my thoughts about burning books…however that is ok with me.
C) I am not one of YOU…you are not what I strive to be, I don’t beg for conformity. I gave my background as people seem to need it to pacify them. Looks to me your just throwing a huge temper tantrum.
D) Listen Ken, I have heard people’s opinions about book burning, but there has been zero logic or reasoning. I stand for what I believe in, even if that means I have to defend those beliefs to others or stubborn bastards. Would you rather I have instantly changed my name to satisfy the people? That’s not how I roll. We all have biases and presuppositions, why are yours so cool? Come on superstar, I need to know how I can get some of your amazing superstar powers.
Finally I am not asking or begging people to understand me. I am explaining what I believe and how some of those beliefs came to be. (Remember we are not all as amazing as you) I could care less if at the end of the day someone “understands me” but you bet your sweet superstar ass that I will defend my position.
Ps, the cookie was burnt, how about you make me another batch sweetie.
troll removed 
I can read. It’s unfortunate you can’t write. It is the author’s responsibility to write clearly and not the reader’s responsibility to make sense of their bullshit.
Apology accepted sweetie. Here is my ass… go ahead and kiss it.
C) Agreed. None of us are “one of you.” No dogma, no shared beliefs. Nothing in this.
D) So you stand for your PRECONCIEVED NOTIONS. God it. Have fun with your Bigoted Existence. Ciao!
Of course not. Why in the fuck would you change a preconceive notion? Typical black and white religious mind. “You are either with me or against me!” LOL… Damn you are so stuck in your anger it is sick to watch the suffering.
Wow… I started responding to this are realized it would take a book. I never actually looked at how much I have studied, how many countries I have traveled, all the amazing experiences and people I have met who have influenced my life, all the religions I have studied and experience to get where I am. I have to tell you, in all honesty, my amazing superstar powers are so far out of your reach as to be pretty much impossible for you to achieve. At the same time, I have to wonder why you would be interested in my super powers instead of working on your own? Clearly there is a whole lot of work you can do.
ON A SIDE NOTE: Thank you. I had not considered how absolutely super my powers were for a long time. The fact that I looked at them and how I got here from there was a very enjoyable little daydream. Brought back lots of amazing experiences and adventures. I have led an amazing life. You reminded me of how amazing my life is and how fantastic my super powers have become over time. I appreciate it.
You just put up those defenses. You fight to the end. You hold onto that anger. You fight to keep those presuppositions. Never bend, never yield. Never deal with the pain of the past. FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT the urge to feel. You keep that fire burning until it eats you up inside and you have nothing left to burn.
We got loads of cookies. Tin Man left a locker full of them when he bounced. He will never miss them. Here, have another. But, that’s it for now. We don’t want to spoil your dinner. Tonight you will be having crow. Mmmmm… yummy.