God is Not Incompatibile With a Rational Explanation of Creation of Man

Debate Room
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I would like to bring up is the following from the book genesis written by Moses:

Genesis 1:20 "And EL said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that has life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open expanse of heaven. (22)And EL created great dragons (tanniyniym - a marine or land monster) and every living creature that moves, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: And EL saw that is was good. (22) And EL blessed them saying, Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let the fowl multiply in the earth."

This explains accounts of dragons, which are dinosaurs and other monsters from the beginning.

The key point here though and what God wants you to know about creation is this:

Genesis 1:26 "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth."

God goes on to explain that man was given a living soul presumably unlike the animals which simply had life. So it pleased God to make man and women because we are partakers of His nature, above created things and worthy of eternal life and this is what separates you from an animal and why humans are indeed not animals or rather above them.

So this is evidence that the creation of mankind was intentional and a process that proceeded from the logos of God and was carried out in the literal world by natural processes in accordance with His word. The part I consider relevant is that these specific things were stated before any conceptions of evolution or real ideas about how people and animals were created or what origins there are. This is a highly specific narration of what the cause of life on earth is and how it occurred.

This account is starkly different than any alien theories of creation or purely evolutionary perspectives because there is an extraordinary intention within the universe that is designed into the fabric of the human essence as reality was created for us.

I believe theory has more explanatory power. Only God could organize a structure like planet earth to bring forth creatures in abundance and humans, it is intentional and makes sense. There is really no other explanation that makes sense to me other than choosing to believe in blind reality. It also explains why we are in the situation we are in with our attitudes towards life and how we behave out of line with the cosmic order.

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Please prove this assertion.

Hint: the bible is the claim, not the proof.

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Please explain “cosmic order” and what part mankind plays in it.

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You want to know about the soul correct? Here is a parable for your soul to have understanding of the meaning:

Matthew 13:3
"…A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.”

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With all due respect, you did not answer my question. My question is how does one determine that men have “souls”, while other animals do not?

You are making a claim, I am expecting a rational explanation, not biblical passages (which do not prove anything). I must assume you missed this part:

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-You missed the point.

-That the Bible is not proof of anything is your default assumption not reality.

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I do not accept biblical quotes as any form of proof.

I will repeat. You stated …

And my response was for you to offer a valid explanation or series of proofs that man has a supposed soul and other animals do not.

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Are you aware of the history of this bible? That it is basically a collection of stories passed on and on, and put to text by unknown authors at unknown times.

There is no possible method in determining the validity of the bible as authortative or authentic.

I also suggest you read up on circular arguments, because the theme appears to be “the bible is true because the bible is true”. You expect me to accept the bible as valid with no proof, just assertions that fail to meet the burden of proof.

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you are fucken joking right? I would love to see some evidence for this fatuous claim. Bring it on.

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I care if it has predictive power; since that is useful.

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Umm you do know this is an atheist debate forum?

Why do you insist on quoting the bible? That is not recognised as an authority by most here. It’s usually mildly irritating when yet another Christian apologist trots out same unsupported drivel.

If you’re serious, perhaps take time to learn the difference between a claim and an argument and perhaps few basic logical fallacies.

After saying that, need to say I do not accept that god can be argued into or out of existence. That situation is called ‘unfalsifiable’. Perhaps google ‘Russell’s Teapot’

A materialist, I demand empirical evidence for any claims derived from your personal superstition, and will accept nothing less.

As they say in the classics ‘"either shit or get off the pot’ " (Shakespeare, Fred)

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PLEASE have a read of the article linked below and perhaps take another look at your post. You’ll be amazed the fallacies you findf.

Yeah, I know all this stuff about ‘logic’ and ‘facts’ is irrelevant to your fellow believers, but that’s not the case here.***

****No less an authority than Jesus himself is recorded as telling his followers to believe blindly. To believe blindly, by faith alone is another definition of superstition.

John 20:29 “Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.” (KJV)

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Go to Australia and quote that to the saltwater crocodiles and great white sharks, and then see who has dominion. Today we are the at the top of the food chain, but we weren’t always. And we certainly don’t have dominion over bacteria and viruses.

The characteristics that set us apart from other animals are higher reason and language, both of which are emerging qualities of our physical brain.

I think your god treated Adam and Eve very unjustly. Until they ate the fruit they had no concept of good or evil, so how could they be guilty of anything? And who put the bloody tree there in the first place.

The only honest character in the whole stupid story is the serpent.

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GodisReal, you aren’t off to a very good start at all.

Its been well established, for several hundred years, amongst Jewish and Christian academics, linguists/philologists and archaeologists following exhaustive examination of the various texts from the Jewish scriptures that Moses had nothing at all to do with the writing of the Pentateuch much less Genesis. That claim is a weary old fable and doesn’t make much sense under closer scrutiny. Scholars can show most of the earlier parts of the Torah were edited and rehashed together around the time between the Assyrian and Babylonian exiles. Friedman suggests its the combined editorial work of Jerehmiah, Baruch ben Neriah, and Ezra. It’s another opinion like yours, but better evidenced.

You claim to actually know what your god wants us to know about ‘creation’. That’s a mighty claim about an ineffable god who doesn’t seem capable of keeping to a clear script as shown in the following.
In Genesis 1 the El version of the creation of man and women does not involve giving either man or woman a soul. There is no breathing of life into nostrils. It’s in Genesis 2:7 YHWH creates man from clay and breathes life into him making him a living soul. But YHWH did not do the same for Eve. So where in the Bible did her soul come from? Are you suggesting, as ancient Hebrews most certainly did, that women are lesser creatures?

As far as animals not having souls I offer the following Bible quotes.
Ecclesiastes 3:19-21 ESV
For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return. Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth?

Who knows indeed? You, GodisReal? Pope Francis is of the opinion pets go to heaven. If he is right I’ve got a truck load of dogs to take walkies and bathe and feed as my reward if I’ve been good.

Psalm 74:19 ESV
Do not deliver the soul of your dove to the wild beasts; do not forget the life of your poor forever.

You might well believe in the veracity of these highly specific narrations from Genesis about the cause and occurrence of life on earth, but that’s probably more because you don’t really understand the basics of modern evolutionary theory, in particular the biochemistry of genetic variation, which as well as being incredible in its beauty and simplicity, can alone adequately account for the vast abundance of ‘endless forms most beautiful’ and the curiously fabulous emergence of Homo sapiens sapiens an animal so vain about his own intelligence he uses the word ‘wise’ twice when he named himself and sometime lays claims to understanding the intentions of a god for whom he cannot provide substantive objective proof.

I don’t criticise you or your belief, but based on the limited information you have voluntarily presented here I would only comment it seems you have based your entire view on the garbled creation myths of the ancient Jews which does not provide any evidence for your god, or your presumptions about it, or the role you claim it had in creating the physical natural reality we share. You have merely expressed a claim. That’s not a bad thing, but the reality is your claim for the existence of an ineffable god cannot be proven and it is not the burden of others to prove it does not exist.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

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Oh for fuck sake… God is fucking compatable with everything… how in the hell do you think the story has lasted for so long? As long as you avoid defining your god it is completely compatable with every aspect of human existence and the universe in which we find ourselves. Start giving the god thing attributes and he will be debunked in an instant.

No one gives a shit about anything Genesis has to say… Anyone can write a book and say anything they want to say. The Damascus document says Paul is an Evil Teller of Lies. No one gives a shit. What possible reason would we have for even listening to anything in Genesis. The frigging book does not even get any of the creation accounts correct. It’s a fairy tale.

NO! You do not get to assert “Dinosaurs” from “Dragons.” You need to demonstrate your claim. …

Demonstrating “Henotheism” and the need for the first commandment. “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” DUH! Even your god admits to the existence of other gods. He even works with them according to this passage?

Wrong again Banana Breath. “And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. "
Genesis 2:7 (MAN IS THE SOUL AND ACCORDING TO THE JEWISH FAITH, THE OLD TESTAMENT, SOULS DIE." Your bullshit is Christian wishful thinking add ons.

No one gives a shit about explanitory power. Blue universe creating bunnies have explanitory power as well. You also need “Predictive Ability” which you have none as the universe does this or that at the very whim of your god. And more importantly!!! IMPORTANTLY ----- YOU NEED FALSIFIABILITY!!!

Someone flush the toilet. It stinks in here.

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These are all assertions. What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence(*). You need to

  • show that a guy named Moses was actually the author of those parts of the Torah.
  • show the existence of God
  • show that this God has anything to do with the Torah and the Bible

Simply asserting that God exists because he is the author of the Bible, and it is true because the Bible says so, is a circular argument and is just plain ridiculous. Now please back up your assertions with credible evidence, and only then you can have a rational discussion in here.

(*) Hitchen’s razor

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You are making ludicrous unevidenced assumptions again. This time your claim is falsifiable, since it’s a well evidenced scientific fact that dinosaurs went extinct roughly 65 million years ago (at the end of the Cretaceous Period), humans didn’t evolve in their current form until 150 to 200 thousand years ago.

Quod erat demonstrandum.

FYI, I don’t care what the bible says, anymore than I believe in wizardry based on the content of the Harry Potter books.

No it doesnt, it is nothing more than risible and desperate rationalisation, to ignore the obvious problem of biblical errancy.

There is no objective evidence that the bible’s origins are remotely divine, and the description of Dragons suggest human errancy to me. Your desperate rationalisation notwithstanding.

I don’t believe the bible is divinely inspired, and you may be happy to skip passed such objections, but I don’t based belief on unevidenced assertions the way you are doing.

All living things evolved, that’s an objective scientific fact.

Then we can add the word animal to the growing list of words you don’t understand.

Animal

noun

  1. a living organism that feeds on organic matter, typically having specialized sense organs and nervous system and able to respond rapidly to stimuli.

So definitely describing homosapiens then. Now care to explain if we are not animals, why we share 96% of our DNA with our closest relatives in the animal kingdom, chimpanzees?

The taxonomy of homosapiens is that we are apes, part of a family of great apes, including Chimpanzees, Gorillas, Bonobos, Gibbons, and Orangutans.

Endless claims and assumptions are not evidence. You also claimed no evidenced existed for any deity.

Argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy.

Argument from incredulity fallacy.

No it doesn’t, you don’t seem to understand what explanatory powers entail. However all the objective evidence supports the scientific fact of species evolution through natural selection. Denying it is no less absurd than claiming the earth is flat, or at the centre of the universe.

You are also still preaching at us, and not debating. Please stop that, I really hate being preached at.

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@GodisReal

You’re still preaching, David asked you a question, and you haven’t even tried to answer it.

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So really, God hasn’t done anything, said anything or proved anything…

But a book has claimed he has.

Go through your book and replaced ‘God’ with ‘Axel Foley’.

Every point made so far by the OP smacks of an argument from authority, with no decent argument raised to make one stop sipping their afternoon brew.

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Anyone arguing that the Bible is an authorative guide on anything that relates to animals, needs to first explain the glaring errors in assertion that the Bible makes. For example:

Leviticus 11.6: And the hare, because it chews the cud but does not part the hoof, is unclean to you.
⇒ The hare does not chew cud, and it doesn’t have hooves.

Leviticus 11.13-19: And these you shall detest among the birds; they shall not be eaten; they are detestable: the eagle, the bearded vulture, the black vulture, […] the heron of any kind, the hoopoe, and the bat.
⇒ The bat is not a bird.

Leviticus 11.20-23: All winged insects that go on all fours are detestable to you. Yet among the winged insects that go on all fours you may eat those that have jointed legs above their feet, with which to hop on the ground. Of them you may eat: the locust of any kind, the bald locust of any kind, the cricket of any kind, and the grasshopper of any kind. But all other winged insects that have four feet are detestable to you.
⇒ Insects (including the locust) have six legs, not four.

If the Bible is inerrant, how come there are such glaring and basic errors there? And if the Bible gets basic things like these wrong, what else is wrong in that book? In any case: biblical inerrancy, my ass.

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The Bible is not irrefutable evidence and I don’t believe in God. You’ll need to do better than a bullshit religious thesis to convince anyone here of your beliefs.