Genuine fear of being wrong

Debate Room
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Seeing religious people, specially christians so confident they are right always made me question it… Specially because I consider some of these people really smart individuals outside of their religious beliefs. So, what if God is real? What if the bible is really the word of God? Are we all, or most of us, really going to hell? What if they are right and we are wrong?

I’m genuinely scared of it, so no I’m not trolling. Sorry for coming back with this bullshit again, but I have to talk to someone who understands…

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I read a few of your other posts.

I have no idea of your age or upbringing. It does make a difference and I understand you have English as a second language.

IF you are afraid of being wrong in regard to “hell” make sure you find the right god ‘cause…man, he’ll (or she’ll) be pissed YOU picked wrong.

You are assuming “Christian”.

Why is Islam not a contender in your fear?

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People are selectively smart / stupid on a regular basis. It’s called “compartmentalization”.

Still, my guess is that you’re the one with the inferiority complex when it comes to “smarts”. People are generally very good at gaslighting you about how dumb you are, so I suggest you come up with a different standard for what is smart or not, rather than looking to the herd for guidance.

If only there were a system of investigation and discovery with a proven track record of success in understanding the real world … hm …

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Fear is a tool. Use it appropriately.

For instance, there is as much evidence for fire breathing dragons as there is for hell. I bet you are not afraid of fire breathing dragons though.
Fear is a great tool to use around, say, a golden lancehead snake, or a maniac with a gun, or a drunk driver. These things actually exist. Being fearful of them can keep you alive.
Instead of using fear to think about a hell, try using a more appropriate tool like skeptical thinking.
Being fearful of something for which there is no evidence is like using a chainsaw to cook a steak. It’s the wrong tool to use for the job.

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“So, what if God is real? What if the bible is really the word of God? Are we all, or most of us, really going to hell? What if they are right and we are wrong?”

I understand your concerns and fears, but I don’t share them.

Do good and be a good person (in however you define “good”) to the best of your ability simply for it’s own sake and not out of fear of an imaginary being.

If God doesn’t exist, then you lose nothing.

If God exists, then he will give you a pass for non-belief and let you into Paradise if He is reasonable.

If God is unreasonable, then we’re all screwed anyway and all of the religious belief doesn’t make a difference.

So . . . be a good person to the best of your ability and you should be fine even if you don’t believe in God.

This is what I call the “Reverse Pasqal’s Wager.”

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I have mentioned previously, when this wager is used, flaws that I perceive in the rationale.

  1. The wager assumes, without evidence, that any risk is present.
  2. The wager assumes, again without evidence, that all the risk rests with atheism.
  3. The claim all the risk rests with atheism, is demonstrably wrong, both in the present, and more so at many points, and in many places in human history.
  4. The wager assumes, again without evidence, that belief in a deity or even pretence of such belief, would eliminate the imagined risk.
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I would also add that Pasqual’s Wager seems to assume that the Christian God is what one should believe in, when this wager could be equally applied to Zeus, Odin, Amen-Ra, Osiris, Vishnu, and so forth.

Because this wager really doesn’t indicate which god and/or sect is the “correct” one, it ultimately has no real meaning beyond frightening people into spiritual compliance.

The point of my post is to show the O.P. that this style of thinking could be equally applied to atheism, and that he can legitimately choose to not be afraid of eternal damnation . . . if this is what he wants.

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Easier said than done, particularly for some people.

Back in Fundie World I once had a pastor who confessed that people who keep “coming forward” for every altar call “just in case” were the bane of his existence. Why couldn’t they “just have faith”?

In other words, a subset of people with essentially OCD issues would be attracted to our relatively mild version of fundamentalism (no real hellfire and brimstone style preaching) and yet the damage was already done elsewhere; these people have PTSD about hellthreat and what they need are therapy and medication really. But we did not believe in head doctors so we never referred them to any. Besides, to admit that our basic message (repent or else) was actively harmful to some people was something we weren’t willing to do.

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Correct of course, and this is why I said the wager, incorrectly assumes all the risk is with atheism, when it demonstrably is not, even if one believed a deity existed.

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Consider this:

For the people of the old testament, being a good person was how you got into heaven.

The new testament came along and the current thinking is that what you believe is more important than being good. That just doesn’t make sense! How can a horrible person get into heaven and a good person can’t just based on what they believe!

Further, when Columbus sailed west in 1492, he encountered people who had never heard of the bible. How did those people get into heaven? Best guess: Being good, old testament style.

What about people in India who grow up in the Hindu faith. They don’t get into heaven, even though they are good?

Bottomline: The old testament says good people get into heaven, and the new testament didn’t change that!

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New here first post, not internet savy. I grew up in a Christian family, my father being the most devoted. I was made to attend every Sunday, untill I was 18. Im 43 now. I had a good upbringing, but was never really involved with it. But I find that the years of indoctrination are irrevocable, the fear of punishment still grips me sometimes. The secret is to see it for what it is, a threat. A spiritual threat, to keep you from questioning. If God knows all, he knew whether we would except religion before we were born and able to decide for ourselves. If God is love would he create good, kind, loving people with honor, just to see them sent to hell? Makes no sense. But recognizing the thoughts that were placed in your head, and seperating them from your own is a good start. My parents took me to church because they love me, i would never fault them for that. I dont talk to them, or anyone about it for the most part, it rarely succeeds in more than making the opposite person upset. Religion is hereditary give or take about 5%. So admiting that you are wrong about it, is also saying your parents were wrong, probably grandparents too. Thats a hard pill to swallow, we hate to admit when we are wrong, its human nature. The more of your life is intwined with your religion, the harder you fight the idea you could be wrong. Remember, the chances of you being a human, on this planet, in this sliver of eternity, are immeasurably small. Its is in honor to be alive! You are so rare in the grandscope of this universe, you are priceless. You dont need magic or fairytales to believe it, it is a scientific fact my friend! I hope this helps, like I said im new.

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Well put, Pickles – and welcome!

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it’s interesting, I had a religious apologist, in another forum, peddling “fine tuning”, who claimed it was “fortuitous” that life had emerged, against vanishingly small odds.

I pointed out that it was entirely subjective to call it fortuitous, not an objective fact, as he suggesting. Odd how perception differ really. Beyond that of course his argument never went beyond an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy, or the old “what else could have caused the universe against massive odds, but intelligence”, and a some false equivalence fallacies, where he misrepresented the scientific term fine tuning, which describes entirely natural material characteristic of the universe, with his subjective religious belief, that the universe was fine tuned by a creator deity. He also used another false equivalence, with variations of Paley’s watchmaker fallacy, comparing the universe to things we know are designed and created, as we have overwhelming objective evidence.

He did not take it well, when his fallacious arguments, and subjective claims were met with rational objections. Not at all well, the fur started to fly, so yes, your point is well made about people clinging more doggedly to beliefs, when they are emotionally invested in them.

Oh, and welcome to AR…

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I think to say that the chances of you or I existing, as humans, are tiny on a human scale and legitimate to state within that context. Of course, it is more likely on a cosmic scale that life somewhere like ours is inevitable (though perhaps more debatable regarding the odds that it’s sustainable, if you believe the “Great Filter” theory may be true).

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Well the probability is going to be hard to calculate given we only one universe in our test group, the first obvious flaws in his claim were: Can he demonstrate that the characteristics that have to remain “vanishingly small”, for the carbon based based life we observe to have exist, could be otherwise? Or that it is impossible for any other forms of life, to emerge if they were different? He could do neither of course, so his claims of improbability wee entirely subjective.

When I said that his claim that “life emerging was fortuitous” is a subjective claim, I mean for example, the mergence of life came with ubiquitous suffering, and mass extinctions. So whether we find the notion fortuitous doesn’t seem like an objective claim to me. As one could argue either way.

The rest of his spiel was predicated on different forms of argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacies. Insisting someone prove the universe could only be caused by natural phenomena, or it must have been designed by a deity using supernatural powers.

It went on in that vein for some time, until he ended up losing it, and hurling insults around, before storming off.

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This whole fine tuning argument is faulty. Our planet in orbit around our sun in our universe was not made (or fortuitiously happened) to be conducive to life. It’s the other way around - life happened at this particular planet because conditions were conducive to life.

Edit: To the extent that it makes any meaning to talk about odds for life in this context, it all has to do with prior knowledge and the question you ask; what we need to make our kind of life happen, vs. what kind of life can happen given the present conditions.

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@justsomeoneouthere I can relate completely. You are not alone, my friend. I grew up in a fundamental church, have a degree in biblical studies, was in employed ministry for over a decade, participated in formal debates, etc., etc. I also have OCD, so this whole “fear of being wrong” is something I very much understand in my every day life, especially religion. Here is how I eventually overcame it, especially as it pertains to religion. Note: I will post a shorter reply right now, and then if you want to hear more, I’ll be happy to share.

  1. Theoretically speaking, there is no belief system to which one could adhere that would eliminate the fear of being wrong.

The “what if’s” are present among any belief system that isn’t rooted in empirical data. What if Christianity isn’t correct, but Judaism is? A lot of smart scholars are Jews. What if Jesus was a false prophet and I need to be a Jew? What if the islamic faith is correct? Have you ever studied the islamic faith in detail? How do you know they aren’t right? What if I’m a Christian, but not the right kind of Christian? What if I’m too liberal and rejected by God? Or too conservative and legalistic, and rejected by God? With over 40,000 Christian denominations, what are my chances of getting it right even within the sphere of Christianity itself? This doesn’t even account for all the other past pagan or tribal religions that taught various forms of tormet and hell in the afterlife. What if those are actually correct, and we’ve fallen prey to just modern religions, such as Islam and Christianity?

Play around with this in your mind for a bit and see what it does. If you’re not bothered by the fact you could be wrong about Judaism, Islam, other systems of Christianity (than that of your own upbringing), and the (literally thousands) of other religions that have existed throughout human history, then the issue is actually not the fear of being wrong itself (because if it was, every religious possible outcome you could be wrong about and involces hell would cause you fear, especially the ones you know you aren’t even aware of…because the one you aren’t aware of could be the very one that is “right.” But if you’re ignorant to it, you wouldn’t know). If the only one that causes you fear is just the one you were raised in, then this is clearly an indocrination issue, not a cateorical fear of being wrong.

  1. Understanding more about human psychology and anthropology really helped me as well. Ironically, people who struggle with religious fear or hell anxeity (like myself) only fear being wrong in the very specific teachings we were raised with or once convinced of. It’s not just former Christians who have this fear, there are former muslims, Jews, etc. who are afraid they might be wrong. But not of Christianity. Rather, of their own past convictions of their religion. No Jew becomes an atheist and then fears whether they should be a Christian. No Christian becomes an atheist then fears whether they should be a Muslim (at least I’ve never found any evidence for this). This shows how strong and irrational fear is. For example, I’ve spent very little time studying the Quran (other than when we were very biased in seminary school and just cherry picking verses to “refute” it). But I’ve never honestly and openly given Islam a chance. But it doesn’t bother me one bit that I might be wrong about the islamic faith. Why? Because I was never indocrinated into it. The same is true of many different types of Christian denominations. I wasn’t raised in the Pentecostal church, so my fears of being wrong aren’t tied to that. My fears of being wrong are only tried to the very specific beliefs I was taught. Understanding this fact alone took away a lot of the fear and helped me understand how natural this is (especially with someone who has OCD like myself). Let’s say that there is a “god” and this true god was lost to human history because people quit believing in him, but this is the true god and we just are ignorant about it. And you die, and this true god sends everybody to hell because nobody knew about him. Does this scare you? If not, why not? Does it scare you to think you could be wrong about Judaism? If not, why not? Does it scare you to think you could be wrong about the islamic faith? If not, why not? Because human psychology. You can thank evolution for this irrational fear shit, lol. It’s just trying to keep you safe the best it knows how.

  2. Acceptance. I’ve accepted I could be wrong about any of these things, but I don’t “believe” I am. The same is true with Christianity. Could the conservative, Trump-loving view of God be correct? Sure. But I don’t believe it is. What if it is? Well, then I have to ask myself if I would want to follow a God that I believe is that harmful. Let me ask it another way; what if, for whatever reason, there was empirical evidence that proved the wrathful god who approved and commanded children-killing, women-raping, and genocide did exist and told you that to follow him and avoid hell you must kill innocent children because he said so. Would you do it? Would you want to follow a god like that?

  3. Finally, faith involves belief. Religion isn’t just action-based, it involves belief. And, I can’t just believe in whatever I want to believe in to be safe or happy (other wise, I would still believe in Santa! lol). I can’t just choose to believe in God “just in case.” I literally can’t believe in God, even though I tried really hard. I’ve studied too much and the only way I could belief in god would be to do so dishonestly, which isn’t actually belief to begin with. I could go to church, perform rituals, live a certain life, but I can’t believe no matter how much I try. So the reality is that there isn’t anything I can do about it at this point any way because I don’t believe. So, if I go to hell, then there wouldn’t have been anything I could have done about it. So if I do go to hell, then there was nothing I could have done about it any way. So why bother? And, if that kind of god does exist, most people will be there any way so we figure it out then and take on a new journey and chapter in our lives.

As someone else pointed out…if there is a supreme being, I’m convinced I wouldn’t be punished for trying my best and living based on what I believe in. It’s much better than the people who are led by fear and end up killing their children because they believe God told them to do it (and no, this doesn’t just happen to mentally “crazy” people, either).

Finally, as a side note, when I was still a Christian I realized that the Bible never even teaches eternal conscious torment, but either complete destruction for the “lost” or possibly universalism where everybody ends up getting saved). I actually believed both views are represented in the NT. So, that helped me as well to realize not only was my fear irrational, but it was predicated on a myth about hell to begin with, and something the Bible itself doesn’t teach.

Okay, I said I would give you my “shorter” answer and I did! haha I said shorter, not short. I have a lot more I could say, but this is a quick overview of how I was able to work with my OCD and religious fear of being wrong.

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Good points! I would add that Pasqal’s Wager also assumes theoretical belief is an arbitrary choice one could make at will. As if believing in God is just a lip service. But, it’s not. I wanted to believe and tried very hard. But the logic, honesty, and cognitive dissonance forced me out. I didn’t leave faith; faith left me.

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@Kevin_Levites Yes, as someone who has OCD, I questioned whether I was “too” legalistic when I was a fundie because god rejects the legalists. But then when I started to become more “liberal,” I was also scared I might be crossing boundaries god did set. When you can’t loose where god hasn’t loosed or bind where god hasn’t bound, then it’s an impossible tight rope to know if you’re right or wrong and when far is too far or close is not close enough.

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If this god is even worth worshipping, it would be a god that have any actual powers, because what’s the purpose of a powerless god? If this god is forgotten, it just means that she has not interacted enough with potential worshippers to remind them of her existence and why/how/when to worship. So if the number of worshippers dwindle and they disappear, the god has only herself to blame. So why should I/you/we be scared of missing out on being a serf for a totally impotent asshole god?

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