Geek corner: tech discussions not suitable for other threads

I see it rather different.

Of course, I can customise my desktop using something like Rainmeter whereas on Linux I’m forced to various desktops and, to my mind, somewhat esoteric customisations. I can’t say I’m a particular fan of Windows 11 bloatware and start menu but it’s easy enough to customise it so you get rid of most of it and bring the old menu back… a brief glance at my desktop would suggest I’m using Windows 10 (IMO the best version of Windows ever) rather than what I actually am.

If you like using older hardware that’s fine but I prefer up-to-date sh#t and that, unfortunately, is rather hard to get support from in the Linux community… typical experience for me is to ask how to do something, I’ll get one, maybe two enthusiastic volunteers, still can’t fix it and they eventually walk away. My experience with Windows support communities is that they’ll stick with it until the problem is solved; I’ve literally never had issues getting Windows support… unlike Linux. And then there’s the attitude I seem to always get in Linux communities, the intolerance of relatively inexperienced people like me especially when it becomes clear I have reservations about leaving Windows, indeed in one Linux community, I got banned because they wrongly believed my only purpose there was to create problems. With respect to desktop environments, sure they’re flexible in Linux but they’re also different on almost every Linux distro even on the same damned desktop.

I agree on the planned obsolescence however I’d simply say, “that’s capitalism baby” i.e. it’s pretty much the way everything works in a capitalist society. I might be wrong here but it also seems to happen with paid-for variants of Linux so it presumably has some impact as that filters down to “ordinary” distros. Then again, there’s the unplanned obsolescence that seems to be a feature of Linux on those occasions when one updates the system and something critical to you stops working. And, even when I do install something, will someone tell me where the f#'cking shortcut is?

Good for you on the old Windows boxes… I’ve been using Raspberry Pi machines and a mini-PC for my Linux installs but I’m looking out for a decent older PC I can use to replace my mini-PC server, I’d want a decent spec though.

On software, you’ve never heard of Sourceforge or similar? Despite nagging, you can use Windows unlicensed and buying a license from outlets like Gamers Outlet let me license for just a few quid and there’s literally a ton of decent open-source software for Windows PCs out there if one cares to look. No idea what you mean by the “golden handcuffs” thing… granted I am extremely PC literate (thirty years in IT and forty plus as a computer freak’ll do that) but my Windows 11 box does what I want it to do and that’s pretty much it.

A particular point for me is usability (although it’s less true of quite a lot of OSS, Blender for example)… to my mind if you can use one Windows application, you can usually use any and the shortcuts are standard across pretty much every application. I will get down and dirty with an app but to me aesthetics are almost as important as function… it’s one reason I’m having difficulty switching to an alternative email client. Please don’t even suggest Thunderbird!

Sure, there are some aspects of Windows design I’m not keen on but that pales to insignificance compared to the Linux distros I’ve used… obviously I haven’t used them all, there are far too many to count, they’re all wildly different and that, quite frankly, is another f#cking bug bear.

I’m not anti-Linux or even massively pro-Windows but Linux has a long way to go before you can hand, say, a Linux configured laptop to your elderly relative and just expect them to use it safely which, even though I personally despise it, Windows in “S mode” will do quite well. Historically Linux has been a nightmare to install, maintain and use for anyone who isn’t willing to read a ton of help files (man pages?), then delve deep into the system’s innards, install a ton of dependencies and finally, just maybe, get the thing working. Yes, it’s getting better these days with the flatpak system but even there it’s confusing because there are multiple system that all do similar things e.g. virtualisation software like Docker, Winboat, Wine (I’m aware they are all slightly different) and so on but until the Linux community (developers and expert users) gets its act together it’s still gonna be a hostile environment for normal people and especially for many ex-Windows people.

I’m not an iPad enthusiast or even really an Android buff (I have a phone and a tablet), I’ll always be a desktop user… Windows at the moment, potentially something else later (Linux maybe). Ultimately, I think Linux is a good operating system just like Windows and Apple Mac OS but you need to be a serious enthusiast to use Linux effectively and most of the Apple users I’ve met seem to be “know nothings” delusional about how easy their Macs are to use and no one else’s is or some such b#llocks (maybe it’s them that need to be patched?). For me, Windows just works and despite the fact that I have significant issues with MS (the company) and am not happy with the direction they’re taking, I’ve found it really problematic to find something else suitable.

UK Atheist

sure you can, that is one of the main reasons I use it. things like an immutable file system, atomic updates, etc.

Good for you but we’re gonna have to agree to differ :grinning_face:

Based on my experience both in IT and as a Home Computer Support specialist, I wouldn’t consider it because of the support issues involved. We don’t agree on everything but my friends, all of whom have worked in IT most of their lives, would on this.

My late mum (mid-eighties then, used a Win10 desktop/laptop) once told me proudly that no one she knew even used a PC and some of them were in their early sixties; IMO a Windows laptop left in “S” mode or a tablet of some description would be the best option (and based on my mum, I’m not convinced on the tablet).

UK Atheist

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I’m rather indifferent about Linux (or my preferred UNIX variant–FreeBSD). Yes, it works, and it’s free, both in the economic and philosophical sense, but whenever I’ve used it for my primary desktop operating system, even for years, I always end up switching back to Windows. Why? Primarily because Windows is more consistent, both in interface and in support of must-have applications.

Internally, Windows has a good design. After all, it was designed by Dave Cutler, the guy who designed DEC’s RSX11M and VAX/VMS operating systems. Its internals are well-documented, but, of course, source isn’t available as it is with Linux and FreeBSD (but the average user of these is nowhere competent enough to make changes and fix bugs–they have to rely on others to do that, just like Windows users do).

Some people don’t the Windows configuration database (the registry) and prefer the plain text configuration files used by Linux. That’s a fair concern–it’s easier to open a file in an editor and see the configuration settings and change them. The registry, on the other hand, is harder to visualize settings, but it stores them in binary form cached in memory, which makes them faster to access by applications. That was important when Windows ran on slower hardware. It isn’t much of an issue now, but as in a lot of other similar cases an elegant solution to a real problem has become moot as hardware has gotten faster.

I actually like the Windows UI and Start button and taskbar. I never found a Linux windows manager that I liked as well.

I recently bought a Mac and have started to transition to that platform. I was a Mac user in the past, having various Macs going back to the Mac Plus circa 1987. The original Mac OS was primitive in that it never properly supported multitasking, but starting with MacOS X, things changed and it became a proper modern operating system. Apple has strict UI guidelines for developers, which means applications tend to use the same conventions, and that makes them more consistent. When I switch back and forth between Windows and MacOS it just takes me a few minutes to get used to the differences.

The primary reason I’m switching back to Apple is because all of my other electronic gadgets are Apple–iPhone, iPad, Apple TV, Apple Watch–and they’re all very tightly integrated. When I’m using my Mac, I can pull up a virtual iPhone on the display to send and receive text messages and answer phone calls. On my Apple TV I can display photos and videos taken on my iPhone on the big screen in my home theater. I can write applications in Swift for all five platforms that operate in a similar manner.

Sure, there’s the so-called “Apple tax” in the form of higher prices for the hardware, but the hardware is well-designed and solid and I don’t mind the higher prices. And then there’s Tim “Apple” Cook, who seems to go out of his way to kiss Trump’s ass as often as possible…

There’s a similar issue with Android vs IOS, that maps pretty well to Linux vs Windows/MacOS. Which is that every Android vendor “skins” Android (which is based on Linux anyway) in its own way and determines their own defaults and have different utilities, etc. and so there is no consistency from phone to phone or even from model to model sometimes. Whereas relatively speaking, iPhones all operate the same way.

There’s something to be said for consistency, particularly for casual users.

My main malfunction with MacOS is that they are so slavishly minimalist in their UI sometimes. I think for example that there should be explicit Save & Cancel buttons on any control panel; I still get the cold sweats when closing a window after making involved changes and then have to go back in & make sure they actually “took”. So far they always do but I would rather that be explicit. As a user, I like to be in the driver’s seat and not subject to various occult defaults. Also if I change my mind I like an explicit way to say so rather than hitting [Esc] and hoping for the best.

They also are happy to make breaking changes on short notice. I know several MacOS devs who have apps they have written & support and they grouse constantly about this. It’s always some version of “every time a new version of MacOS comes out something isn’t quite right and there’s not always a workaround and I have to rush to release a version-specific handler to take care of it when otherwise it would be so stable I wouldn’t probably touch it once in two years”. Sometime’s it’s just cosmetic bugs but it makes them look bad if they don’t fix them. At the other extreme, sometimes their product won’t even run. There have been a lot of fits and starts on how security features work for example.

Say what you will about Window’s obsession with backward compatibility — it is more respectful of the user AND the developer.

There was a change in Windows some time back where when you have an external drive plugged in and it’s formatted NTFS you no longer have to explicitly “eject” it to unplug it. It took me quite some time to get used to that before I trusted it.

My wife is always complaining that whenever she gets used to where various menu options are located in applications like Word and Excel, Microsoft will change them and she has to go searching for them. It’s like my local bookstore. Whenever I get used to the layout and know where every section is located, they’ll change everything and I have to relearn the layout.

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I was thinking more about the OS being constrained by backward compatibility. Apps are another thing. When they added “the Ribbon” to Office that blew a lot of people’s minds and always struck me as a solution looking for a problem. I think in the apps realm everyone (not just M$FT) feels they have to keep fiddling so that they can justify the subscriptions, otherwise it looks like not much of substance is really happening.

There’s some movement back toward one-time lifetime licensing but in fairness it’s probably hard to make a go of it when you have to rely on new users for all your revenue. My preference is to have a perpetual license for a specific version which I can voluntarily upgrade when I feel there’s something in the latest release I actually need or when they sunset support for very old releases. But some apps just don’t lend themselves to that. How much does a typical user really need in the way of new word processor or spreadsheet features? There’s already more in Word and Excel than I actually will ever use (I maintain subscriptions to those mainly for full, worry-free compatibility with client data but would be fine with Libre Office or something, post-retirement).

yes, when you have to be backwards compatible with trash, you become trash

Additionally, the incremental fixes and patches required keep mounting up resulting in piles of junk code.
Hmmm…sorta like our junk DNA.

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That’s not how it works. Junk DNA has no known function, but OS fixes and patches do, so the two are not equivalent.

It’s up to the engineers maintaining an OS to make sure new fixes and patches don’t introduce new bugs, which is always a possibility. Dead code is not left in place, it’s removed. It’s up to management and lead engineers to ensure this is done properly.

All modern operating systems have tens of millions of lines of code and it’s nearly impossible to make it completely bug free because it’s impossible to test all possible paths through the code, even with automated testing. That task is complicated even more in the case of Windows by the requirement to maintain backwards compatibility.

In the last ten years I have not had a single blue screen of death on any of my Windows systems. I have had kernel panics on servers running Linux. I know that’s anecdotal, and your experience may differ.

I’m probably in a better position than most to comment on this issue as I spent 1/4 of my 43 year career developing operating systems. I’ve seen Windows source code, and no immediate red flags stood out—it’s well-structured and not the spaghetti code nightmare that some make it out to be.

Edit: One thing I forgot to mention is there’s often a push to “rewrite it from scratch”. That’s uniformly a bad idea as such efforts take years of development time and effort and result in something that has lots and lots of new bugs that will take years to fix, including bugs that were found and fixed in the original code. Any claims that this is easy and will succeed are just pipe dreams.

Sorry, I was talking app software, not OSs.

My last job was in IT for a huge U.S. company although I was definitely not a sw engineer.
They frequently left code in some of their internally developed (frankenstein’s monster) apps, code that eventually had no function because other, newer code rendered it useless.

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That’s definitely a bad practice. At my last job we had a very strict requirement to remove any dead code, and that was enforced at code reviews. Dead code had to be removed entirely, commenting it out wasn’t allowed.

Removing dead and unused code isn’t an issue these days, because source code control systems like git make it easy to retrieve earlier versions of the code with the removed code intact.

Well, I’m a :sauropod:

I actually miss Windows NT and 2K :zany_face:

Me too. When most people were using Windows 95 I was using Windows NT.

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There are support groups available for this issue…

I was at Motorola when they migrated from NT to 2K. By this time anyone in Operational Support had developed an ingrained animosity towards NT. The roulette of DIP switches and jumpers…setting the IRQ and DMA manually to eliminate conflicts…the SCSI preference…and the Control Panel> Device Manager interface that just mocked you for choosing it… Don’t get me started on managing local and network policy…poledit.exe was like snorkeling in a cesspool…

Sorry, but fuck NT.

2K didn’t have to be good…it just had to be anything but NT to be appreciated. Active Directory, Plug and Pray and no more SCSI hardware… Yeah, 2K was alright.

IMHO, XP and Windows 7, after the second service pak, were the best thing Mircosoft ever put out. Shit just worked and it was stable.

Part of me is convinced that everything from Windows 8-11 has been developed by escaped Windows ME developers who chewed through the asylum walls to write code again…

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the rust compiler can

And yet MSFT is on a project to rewrite “key parts” of the OS in Rust.

My very first little foray into tech a hundred years ago was to get an MCSE. It was on NT and I had NT Server (got it for free) as my first os at home. So, I have a certain fondness for it…perhaps because I knew it. Kept it running on a partitioned system for years. when it came out, my husband decided he wanted ME installed on his partition. I warned him. It took about three days before I was wiping it. I didn’t ever use my MCSE and instead ended up with Cisco NP/DP. Loved networking. Never really used them either as it turns out. But I digress.

For the last ten years or more, I’ve just used whatever MS serves up. But I’m a very casual user, opening my laptop only a couple of times a week. Perhaps it’s laziness, ignorance, or apathy.

I went to Linux when Windows 7 went EOL. I had supported Windows 10 for a few years and just saw it as intrusive bloatware.

Linux Mint was the distro I liked best and have been there for 6 years now. I have forgotten more about Windows than I know about Linux, but I have reached a level of acceptance with that.

There are times when the open source development mirrors the old adage, “A camel is a horse designed by committee”

It can’t test all those paths at runtime. No way. For something like an OS with millions of lines of code and almost as many code paths, it would take longer than the age of the universe!

Yes, but they’re doing it piecemeal like you said. They are not rewriting the whole thing from scratch in rust. And you can bet that those rewritten parts will have bugs that will have to be fixed. There’s no such thing as a free lunch.

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