Finding Hitler’s Soul

[Sheldon]

@rat_spit

I’ve provided one piece of very important evidence. Consciousness can not be weighed. As such it is immaterial.

It’s just your opinion that your claim is evidence that consciousness is immaterial, and it has been challenged, since it would mean a wink itch or cough would all be immaterial, as they can’t be weighed, yet like consciousness they’re all emergent properties of a physical body, is a smile immaterial, how about pain, how about heat or cold? The logical consequences of your claim either become preposterous or meaningless. consciousness is a property of the physical brain, you are treating it like it is a separate entity, but there is ample evidence it ceases when the brain dies.

@rat_spit

As to the objective or subjective reality that consciousness is fundamentally weightless, You have provided nothing but personal opinion.

That’s a lie, and ironically it is solely your personal opinion that this is evidence for your claim.

@rat_spit

Yeah. An itch is immaterial. That is exactly what I am saying.

That’s as desperate as it is dishonest, rather than admit your claim was flawed, you’re know going to declare all bodily functions that can’t be weighed as immaterial, pretty funny though. Is pain immaterial?

@rat_spit

You cannot reduce the feeling of an itch to any physical process. You can map it to a bunch of different electrical impulses in the brain - but those do not describe “the itch”. The itch itself is a feeling. Beyond physical description.

So you don’t bother scratching it then?

@rat_spit

You cannot reduce the feeling of an itch to any physical process.

You’ve never been tickled then?

@rat_spit

The itch itself is a feeling. Beyond physical description.

noun

1. an uncomfortable sensation on the skin that causes a desire to scratch.

Wrong again it seems.

@rat_spit

Misrepresenting me again. I never said consciousness, dreams, or what have you exist independently of the brain.

@rat_spit

I do see a sort of indestructible aspect to the mind. The sort of abstraction where this empty space in our brain is sort of the “stuff” of consciousness.

I don’t see how that can be destroyed.

So yes you did.

@rat_spit

So dense. If you don’t GET my meaning that is an absolute function of your fucking snot nosed primary ugliness.

Sulk all you want rat boy, you made a cunt of yourself, and not because of your remedial grasp of language either, but because you were being a bullying arrogant prick (again), “as light as” is not the same as “about as light as”, you cretin. The fact you have yet again slithered down into ad hominem to defend an indefensible position says it all, grow the fuck up.

@rat_spit

As I’ve said, this exchange would be next to unbearable without the ability to insult you in any way I please. I happily agreed to those terms. And I will exercise the right to make fun of you however I see fit.

Make fun of me? Oh you poor poor lad, is that what you think has been happening here? Now I am starting to feel like I’m kicking a puppy, a particularly stupid and constantly yapping puppy of course.

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

Except you have only expressed subjective opinion,

It is an objective fact of reality that the product of brain activity, ie. consciousness cannot be put on a scale and weighed. It has no weight, no mass, and is immaterial. Perhaps it has relativistic mass. At this point it doesn’t matter.

Your conclusions is just your subjective opinion. You’ve even started claiming an itch is immaterial now in a desperate attempt to ignore the idiocy of the assumption you made, your premise does not support your claim.

@rat_spit

You have presented nothing to suggest that consciousness “in and of it self” is material.

That’s a lie, as you’ve been told multiple times that in every instance it disappears when the physical brain dies. Then there is brain damage which impairs it, and the areas of it that are impaired directly matched the parts of the brain we know relate to them. The implication is clear, it is a property of a physical brain. Though as others have pointed out to you, no claim gains credence because it can’t be disproved, this is an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy. You’re again using a well worn method of religious apologetics.

@rat_spit

Only the “feeling” of an itch, the “feeling” of a wink is immaterial. You have provided nothing to suggest otherwise.

Physical or biological (medical text books are filled with examples) stimuli causes a physical reaction, I don’t need to add any woo woo to that, if you want to imply magic then the burden of proof is yours, so far you’ve offered nada, just that sensations can’t be weighed, which doesn’t support your conclusion. Wetness can’t be weighed, neither can coldness or heat, your conclusion is nonsensical.

@rat_spit

The actual feeling and perception of sight, hearing, touch, taste , smell AND awareness is immaterial.

I don’t believe you, and you will need to offer more than bare assertion if you’re going to try and insert woo woo to a physical process. If they were as you claim immaterial, rather than emergent properties of the physical body and brain, then they could exist with it, and this is not the case. My sense and consciousness will end with the death of my physical brain.

[Sheldon]

@rat_spit

Haven’t made that claim. Not once. I’ve claimed it’s “immaterial”. As immaterial as space.

Your reasoning is flawed because you are assuming consciousness is a separate thing when it is in fact a property of a thing, the physical brain. Like claiming speed is immaterial, then testing it by stepping out in front of a car. FYI you can’t weigh speed either, though like consciousness it effects can be measured or quantified. Again look at the screen, this evidence of consciousness, were I to die, and my brain to cease functioning, you would never see that evidence (or any other objective evidence) of my consciousness again, and this is true in every single instance. This fact is compelling evidence that consciousness is imply a property of the brain.

[David_Killens]

@rat_spit

Haven’t made that claim. Not once. I’ve claimed it’s “immaterial”. As immaterial as space.

Space is full of stuff. Even at the deepest reaches of outer space far from any galaxy or planet, it is full of light and gravity waves passing through, the odd atom or molecule, dark energy, dark matter, and who knows what else we have not yet discovered.

Do you have any gold? That rare metal is produced in the heart of a collision between two neutron stars. That gold created there has literally spread to every corner of the universe. The entire universe is not devoid of matter, it is “polluted” by the many elements and molecules created by stellar actions.

[David_Killens]

@rat_spit

@David_Killens

Does my hard drive possess supernatural properties?

No it doesn’t. Nor does it compare to a brain.

@David_Killens

My hard drive receives data from my processor, which inputs data from my keyboard, mouse, internet, and any other devices. It then outputs to devices such as my monitor, speakers, and internet.

My brain receives input from my senses, such as Sight. Hearing. Touch. Taste. And smell. It then outputs to muscles and glands, along with other bodily functions.

I already made this post.

[skriten]

@Nyarlathotep

For what it is worth, Congress did eventually intervene in Vietnam, but it took YEARS. Which isn’t much different than no intervention.

Yes that’s fundamentally correct, however, that “intervention” only took place after massive protests, the murder of innocent students at Kent State, and probably most significant, the elimination of the college deferment which led to the sons of the privileged having to fight alongside working class guys and disproportionate numbers of minority men.
So yes, not much different at all than doing nothing.

[MrDawn]

You hold him. I’ll get the sock and the duck tape. Time to gag Ratty.

[skriten]

@CyberHiker

If you believe that fascism or tyranny is possible in the United States then that means you do not trust the reliability of the Three-part Separation Theory.

Well, not necessarily. The failure of one particular application does not indicate “reliability”, or a lack thereof. The deliberate undermining by different factions can be readily identified. Any “theory” being put into practice can be undermined by self-serving or disingenuous players.

Edit: Judicial Review

[David_Killens]

@CyberHiker

Three-part Separation Theory

Many political and economic dogmas appear fine on paper and in theory. But for people who crave power and money over anything else, corruption and influence creep in. That is the real problem.

[rat_spit]

@Sheldon

It’s just your opinion that your claim is evidence that consciousness is immaterial, and it has been challenged, since it would mean a wink itch or cough would all be immaterial, as they can’t be weighed, yet like consciousness they’re all emergent properties of a physical body, is a smile immaterial, how about pain, how about heat or cold? The logical consequences of your claim either become preposterous or meaningless. consciousness is a property of the physical brain, you are treating it like it is a separate entity, but there is ample evidence it ceases when the brain dies.

It’s not an opinion. It’s a fact.

Claim: the product of brain activity called “consciousness” is immaterial

Evidence: it doesn’t have mass.

Are you denying this?

Further evidence: it can’t be weighed.

Are you denying this?

Is a smile immaterial? The teeth, the lips, the muscle contractions - all material. The “feeling” of happiness from a smile - still physical in origin - but the emergent property of “happiness” is a sensation - it is not material. It cannot be weighed, isolated or measured on a scale.

@Sheldon

That’s as desperate as it is dishonest, rather than admit your claim was flawed, you’re know going to declare all bodily functions that can’t be weighed as immaterial, pretty funny though. Is pain immaterial?

Pathetic retort. You want to talk about dishonest. Sheesh.

Yes - admittedly a wink has underlying unconscious, physical roots in the nervous system. The feeling of a wink is not material. Evidence already stated above.

@Sheldon

noun

1. an uncomfortable sensation on the skin that causes a desire to scratch.

Wrong again it seems.

Right again. You’ve proved my point. It’s a “sensation”. Sensations have their process roots in the nervous system. The feelings emerge as a non-material, strictly mental phenomenon.

@Sheldon

Sulk all you want rat boy, you made a cunt of yourself, and not because of your remedial grasp of language either, but because you were being a bullying arrogant prick (again), “as light as” is not the same as “about as light as”, you cretin. The fact you have yet again slithered down into ad hominem to defend an indefensible position says it all, grow the fuck up.

I know exactly what I meant. It’s not my fault you can’t read between the lines.

@Sheldon

Your conclusions is just your subjective opinion. You’ve even started claiming an itch is immaterial now in a desperate attempt to ignore the idiocy of the assumption you made, your premise does not support your claim.

Sorry Sheldon. A sensation is a sensation is a sensation. If you want to define an itch as something without a feeling associated with it, go ahead.

By and by. Have you ever felt an itch before Sheldon. Do you have feelings?

@Sheldon

physical reaction, I don’t need to add any woo woo to that, if you want to imply magic then the burden of proof is yours, so far you’ve offered nada, just that sensations can’t be weighed, which doesn’t support your conclusion.

It does support my conclusion. It can’t be weighed. It has no mass. Ergo, it’s formless and it’s immaterial. These are simple definitions.

Also, I haven’t claimed to know how a physical brain creates a non-physical mind. Just that it does.

Anything new to add, Sheldon? I’ve got a life I’d like to get back to.

@Sheldon

I don’t believe you, and you will need to offer more than bare assertion if you’re going to try and insert woo woo to a physical process.

I don’t fucking care what you believe. It’s not that you don’t believe. Of course you do. You have a consciousness in that brain of yours. You intrinsically know a priori that your consciousness is without weight or mass. Nor can it be localized in the brain to any specific point.

The basic definition is that a thing which exists but does not have mass is called “immaterial”. You refuse to accept this because that’s an easy win for me, and you don’t accept loss.

Anything new Sheldon? This is getting boring.

Also. You are Misrepresenting me AGAIN AND AGAIN in your desperate attempt to complicate the issue when it’s actually quite simple. Case in point. I haven’t claimed to know the relationship between immaterial sensation/awareness and the processes in the brain that give rise to them.

Again. Anything new at all? Would you like to call it a day? I’ve had quite enough of this. As I said, I no longer care what you believe. Belief is subjective. I’ve given you objective facts supporting the claim. You have a consciousness. All you need do is observe it for your self.

[rat_spit]

@David_Killens

I already made this post.

Yes. I know. And I’ve expressed my belief that brains and computers are fundamentally built different and operate differently. Thus comparisons are superficial.

[David_Killens]

@rat_spit

Thus comparisons are superficial.

Yet you are comparing the immaterial to something supernatural.

[Sheldon]

@rat_spit

It’s not an opinion. It’s a fact.

It seems we can add fact to the list of words you don’t understand. However no, your premise might be true, though trivially so, but your conclusion is pure subjective assumption on your part.

@rat_spit

Claim: the product of brain activity called “consciousness” is immaterial

Evidence: it doesn’t have mass.

Are you denying this?

Nope, I am disbelieving your subjective unevidenced conclusion, again consciousness is an emergent property of a functioning brain. It’s like claiming wetness is immaterial. You may want to believe consciousness is somehow separate from the mind or brain, and can even survive it, but there is no evidence for this, and plenty that it cannot.

@rat_spit

Yes - admittedly a wink has underlying unconscious, physical roots in the nervous system. The feeling of a wink is not material. Evidence already stated above.

A wink is a physical action, and it cannot be weighed, ipso facto your subjective conclusion is not supported by that evidence.

@rat_spit

Right again. You’ve proved my point.

Not at all, since you claimed an itch was “beyond physical description”, and I offered one. Here is your claim again then:

@rat_spit

The itch itself is a feeling. Beyond physical description.

I then offered a physical description of an itch, ipso facto your claim was utterly wrong. Now if an itch is as you claim immaterial how can we physically scratch it?

@rat_spit

I know exactly what I meant. It’s not my fault you can’t read between the lines.

I could care less that you meant something different to what you said, but you again resorted to petty name calling, s=despite the fact that you were wrong. You were wrong, since your phrase “about as light as something” does not mean the same weight as something,

@rat_spit

Sorry Sheldon. A sensation is a sensation is a sensation. If you want to define an itch as something without a feeling associated with it, go ahead.

Where have I ever claimed that an itch doesn’t involve a sensation or feeling, I stated the except opposite, you seem determined to misrepresent what I have said? An itch is a physical sensation, and if it were not as you claim, it would be odd that we are able to physically scratch it, and relieve that sensation. It also can’t be weighed, which was your criteria for something being immaterial.

@rat_spit

Also, I haven’t claimed to know how a physical brain creates a non-physical mind. Just that it does.

Which says it all, you made a claim, but can’t explain it, or objectively evidence it, QED. I don’t believe you.

@rat_spit

I don’t fucking care what you believe. It’s not that you don’t believe.

Clearly you do care, or we’d have been spared your relentless histrionics, like here where you are risibly trying to tell me what I do and do not believe.

@rat_spit

Also. You are Misrepresenting me AGAIN AND AGAIN

That’s a lie, quote one example I dare you.

@rat_spit

The basic definition is that a thing which exists but does not have mass is called “immaterial”. You refuse to accept this because that’s an easy win for me, and you don’t accept loss.

Actually consciousness is defined as the state of being aware of and responsive to one’s surroundings. It is demonstrably a physical state. You have failed to show otherwise.

@rat_spit

I’ve had quite enough of this.

You may post as and when you are minded to, as may I. Consciousness is an emergent property of our physical brains, and nothing suggests it can exist or does exist independently of the physical brain, as you implied at the start, and which I disputed. The definition of consciousness does not suggest a separate or immaterial entity, but a function of our brain and physical bodies.

Anyway I’m off to the pub, to distort my consciousness with alcohol, despite this being a physical process it works, irony has a weird point of reference sometimes.

[Sheldon]

@rat_spit

Sensations have their process roots in the nervous system. The feelings emerge as a non-material, strictly mental phenomenon.

It is only your subjective belief that mental processes are immaterial, you have no evidence for this, and the sensations of an itch are also physical, how else could we scratch an itch? You simply chose a very poor analogy when you claimed that being unable to weigh a process makes it immaterial.

I was hoping even you’d understand by now, let’s try yet some more examples then, can you weigh the Russian revolution, or WWII? How about wind?

Like herding fucking cats, but I’m in the fucking pub so who cares…

Back now…hell of a Chinese takeaway, will regret it all in the morning, but hey ho, I will be sober, rats is still dumb innit…

[CyberHiker]

Maybe the Separation Theory is erroneous.

[David_Killens]

Maybe your ego is so large you can’t see past your nose.

The separation of powers is well known and practiced around the world. You just capitalized a few words and wrapped them in parade floats and fireworks. Many well-governed and stable nations practice the separation of powers.

The problem with your nation is that it is deeply fractured by divisive politics. I am loathe to go into details because I know many wonderful people on both sides of this divide.

[rat_spit]

@David_Killens

Yet you are comparing the immaterial to something supernatural.

Such as what? Where have I made such a comparison? I don’t follow.

[David_Killens]

You are attempting to place consciousness into the immaterial and supernatural realm.

[rat_spit]

@Sheldon

It seems we can add fact to the list of words you don’t understand. However no, your premise might be true, though trivially so, but your conclusion is pure subjective assumption on your part.

“Uncle.”

@Sheldon

Nope, I am disbelieving your subjective unevidenced conclusion, again consciousness is an emergent property of a functioning brain. It’s like claiming wetness is immaterial. You may want to believe consciousness is somehow separate from the mind or brain, and can even survive it, but there is no evidence for this, and plenty that it cannot.

“Uncle.”

@Sheldon

A wink is a physical action, and it cannot be weighed, ipso facto your subjective conclusion is not supported by that evidence.

“Uncle.”

@Sheldon

I then offered a physical description of an itch, ipso facto your claim was utterly wrong. Now if an itch is as you claim immaterial how can we physically scratch it?

“Uncle.”

@Sheldon

I could care less that you meant something different to what you said, but you again resorted to petty name calling, s=despite the fact that you were wrong. You were wrong, since your phrase “about as light as something” does not mean the same weight as something,

“Uncle.”

@Sheldon

Where have I ever claimed that an itch doesn’t involve a sensation or feeling, I stated the except opposite, you seem determined to misrepresent what I have said? An itch is a physical sensation, and if it were not as you claim, it would be odd that we are able to physically scratch it, and relieve that sensation. It also can’t be weighed, which was your criteria for something being immaterial.

“Uncle.”

@Sheldon

Which says it all, you made a claim, but can’t explain it, or objectively evidence it, QED. I don’t believe you.

“Uncle.”

@Sheldon

That’s a lie, quote one example I dare you.

Tempting … but “uncle”.

@Sheldon

Actually consciousness is defined as the state of being aware of and responsive to one’s surroundings. It is demonstrably a physical state. You have failed to show otherwise.

Yep. You’re absolutely right. I am such a piece of used toilet paper. I will never again state a personal opinion ever, to anyone, so long as I live.

@Sheldon

Anyway I’m off to the pub, to distort my consciousness with alcohol, despite this being a physical process it works, irony has a weird point of reference sometimes.

Fuck, Sheldon. I’ve honestly got a tear in my eye. I was going to end this thing by going on about what a tediously painful experience it was, and then you demonstrate that you’re actually human. You actually enjoy a pint now and then. I can’t fault anyone for that.

I will however go ahead with my stalemate move. This has been a lesson in pain compliance. I have not enjoyed a single exchange with you, regardless of my respect for your basic humanity which usually admires me to folk.

Because I value my own happiness over the basic opinions of random people on the internet who I neither know nor value, I will detach from this argument, as you graciously pointed out is both an option for you and I at any point in time, in order to focus more on my personal growth within my profession of choice.

On a lighter note, today I learned how to affect a wrist lock and use pain compliance to evict trespassers who get aggressive. I also learned that a protestor who is shielding their arms from reach can be very effectively persuaded to expose their arms with the application of knuckle pressure to the skull just behind the ear and the repeated and forceful command “arms out!” It makes me wonder about pain compliance on a more philosophical level. Does God use pain compliance. It is, seemingly, very effective.

Tomorrow I will learn how to apply handcuffs during an arrest. You have all been forewarned. I will soon be certified to arrest you under certain conditions. Use of force will be applied.

[rat_spit]

@David_Killens

You are attempting to place consciousness into the immaterial and supernatural realm.

Immaterial does not mean supernatural. Space is immaterial, for example.

[Old_man_shouts_at_cl]

@rat_spit

Tomorrow I will learn how to apply handcuffs during an arrest

Fuck me dead ratty. Which organisation in the fucking universe has you as an enforcer? Oh, wait, Wagner? The Proud Boys? They will take anyone.