Do Personal Experiences Prove The Supernatural?

Debate Room
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Ghosts, Demons, Angels and God are believed to exist by many people in the world, and most people believe in God. About 18% of Americans have claimed to see ghosts. One article talks about someones experiences: What Percentage Of Americans Believe In Ghosts? | PFH

I have seen many comments where people have claimed to experience angels and demons, and many of them don’t have any rational explanations. For example, someone was walking, and it was rainy and dark. They came across a man who seemingly came out of nowhere who was offering an umbrella, and told the person to walk another way back home. The person walking realized that the man had not been whet from the rain, and his book that he was carrying was dry. When she turned around to see him, he wasn’t there. The person realized that the route they were going to take was dangerous, as a violent gang was robbing and assaulting people. I don’t know know if she was religious, because the video was only about angels, and not religion. There are many more comments about personal experiences relating to angels.

There have been also many people who’ve claimed to experience demons and jinns or that they know people who have. For example some Muslims claimed that they know other Muslims who would become depressed or rude and would cover there ears when someone was reciting certain verses. Many Christians have also claimed to have experienced demons. Religious people have claimed to experience demons and angels, and have described miraculous encounters.

Many more people have claimed to have experienced God. Some have talked about visions, and healings. One person claimed that they needed a wheelchair in 2016 and were told they weren’t going to walk again, but on April 19, 2017, they gained the strength to get out. Nabeel Qureshi, an Ex-Muslim apologist, has talked about many visions, dreams and miracles he experienced that led him to faith in Christ. Youtuber and Tiktoker Shane h
Winnings has seemingly performed miracles in his videos.
There are many people who’ve claimed to experience these things. Are there alternative explanations? Why shouldn’t we believe them? Why would all these people lie, especially if lying is a sin?

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Do Personal Experiences Prove The Supernatural?

No, not on their own. personal experience alone is a woefully unreliable standard of evidnece. Again one need only watch a “magic” show to understand how easily our senses can be deceived, and of course that is when we are expecting it.

This is called an argumentum ad populum fallacy, that a claim or belief should be considered valid or true because of the number of people who believe it. This is known common logical fallacy, these are fallacies in informal logic, any argument using such a fallacy is irrational - by definition.

HERE is a master list of common logical fallacies for you, if you want reason strongly, then you should be on the look out for them, in the arguments of others and of course avoid using them yourself.

Again what objective evidence supports their claim? After that ask yourself if all you have is something you cannot explain, if it is then any claims are using an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy, where something is claimed to be true because it cannot be disproved or an alternative explanation found - again this is irrational by definition. If you read the list of fallacies I linked you will see it in there. So this is very poor reasoning in that video, and it is of course an unevidenced anecdotal claim to start with, and all for the most extraordinary of claims.

There don’t need to be, it is irrational to assume a claim is true just because an alternative explanation is unavailable, again this is very poor or weak reasoning. What establishes veracity best is objective evidence, in the absence of any I would always withhold belief. NB Many such claims are contradicting identical claims for other religions and deities, so how do you objectively decide one has any more merit than another?

Because they have no objective evidenced support their anecdotal claim or their conclusion about it, and their conclusions uses a known fallacy in informal logic, called an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy.

Well they may not be lying, just because they believe their claim doesn’t lend it any credence. I have encountered many theists who have lied, and whether they perceived this a s sin is not always clear, but this is imply a fact. Catholic priests who raped children, sold holy relics, offered favours to the rich to buy the souls of dead relatives out of purgatory, do suicide bombers and terrorists always tell the truth?

A far better and more reliable standard for belief, is a demonstration of sufficient objective evidence to support the claims.

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I wasn’t saying it’s true because of the number of people who believe it. I said the number just as a background. I was mainly talking about the ghost article

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I understand, but you know that rationally the number of people who believe something lends the belief no credence whatsoever, and therefore tells us nothing about the validity of the belief. It would also help your reasoning if you read that master list of logical fallacies, I was in my mid thirties when someone argued that I had used a logical fallacy, and didn’t understand what he was saying, but when I investigated the fallacy found out he was right. Since then I strive to avoid using them, and obviously if others use them I am able to spot them and recognise the claims or arguments are fallacious and irrational.

Again is there any objective evidence to support the claims? When I have encountered Ghost claims they are nearly always argumentum ad ingoranitam fallacies, and I have yet to see any accurate definition of what a ghost is, or any objective evidence such a thing is even possible. Keep an open mind by all means, but subject such claims to the same rigour and scepticism as you would any other claim.

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Alternate explanations: a) re-remembering the event with the “belief or expectation”.
Eg. adding the meaning afterwards based on emotion or interpretation. I had a friend who was in her mid-40s. Going through a marriage crisis. Got drunk (with friends :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:). She went outside the restaurant and sat on a bench (we could see her through the window)… a homeless man asked her for money. She gave him some, came into the restaurant. About a month later when talking with her she recalled the above :point_up_2: experience as “clarifying her mind…that the homeless man was an angel testing her and because she gave - he told her “mentally” that whatever decision she made would be the right one” because she would chose the right one

Out of the above experience can you determine
a) did I outright lie?
b) did I embellish the story?
c) do I want to deceive you?
d) did you like the experience?

In all seriousness- answer the above questions…I’ll be honest

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I might add to @Sheldon 's post, @Rohan01 , the following list of invalid forms of argument as they apply to scientific matters:

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@Rohan01, in your OP, you repeatedly wrote the word claimed. People have claimed all sorts of stuff. I could claim that there’s a pixie in my pocket right now. Would you believe my claim?

Claims, by themselves, are not worth anything (we’ll, other than sometimes being entertaining :grin:). Do some folks believe their own claims to be fact? Sure. Does that belief actually make them fact? No, belief doesn’t have that power.

@Rohan01, you seem like the kind of person who really wants answers. That’s a good thing! My hope for you is that you continue to go after them. My advice to you is don’t settle for mere claims and beliefs as sufficient evidence to demonstrate something as a fact.

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Please do not hijack another string started by @Rohan01 !

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Ok, i will not answer @Sheldon.

@Rohan01 For you:

As a final contribution, I will share this YouTube video.

VIDEO

If you ask people here what happened to these children, they will be completely unable to provide any answer other than denial. They may claim that all these children are lying or suggest that they experienced a collective hallucination, among other explanations.

This is the type of problem we encounter when evidence contradicts what they consider to be “reality,” which is merely their own perception of reality.

Science only accounts for a small portion of our experiences. So, if you were to inquire about demons, jinn, or ghosts, what kind of response would you expect? Nobody really knows… Essentially, this is what they would convey in different words.

However, it is important to bear in mind that delving into these topics can be highly perilous. It is a treacherous path that can lead to madness. Therefore, exercise caution and make an effort to study science extensively before embarking on an exploration of such matters.

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Do Personal Experiences Prove The Supernatural?

The only thing personal experience proves is that you exist (see Descartes).

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Hey @Rohan01 this playlist is not exactly inline with your question. However considering your age, I suggest that you start with this

in order to get to the actual reasons why people are the way they are. I would love that you watch this video

However it may be little over your head. Perhaps you could watch it several times, and listen very carefully.
If you are keen to understand humans, you should watch this entire playlist of Sapolsky’s lectures.

However during this lecture series he agreed not to record lectures about beliefs and religion.

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Or stay on topic, and stop sulking.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Please say it is not your final contribution, as despite this site having many outstanding contributions, I feel this level of hilarity is a welcome contribution.

If anything beyond some cash and a camera being offered you mean? :rofl:

Yay, it’s been all of half a second since you embarrassed yourself with an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy, kudos. Here are two answers that don’t involve denial then:

  1. I see no objective evidence, only anecdotal claims, so I am withholding belief.
  2. I can’t know whether the claims are true or not, or that what is claimed accurately reflects what happened, therefore I must remain agnostic, and withhold belief.

It seems you were also using a false dichotomy fallacy as well, your fallacies are like buses now. It seems you don’t want to learn, and all while lecturing others about the danger of being closed minded oh the irony.

Who is they? What objective evidence can you demonstrate that any of the claims made are real?

Yes, the objectively evidenced ones. It’s hilarious you both decry science, and try to leach your unevidenced superstitious claims onto it. It’s bizarre you can’t see the irony of claiming that if “you think” science evidences your beliefs it’ nailed on, otherwise you decry ti as no better than our best guess.

What objective evidence can you demonstrate for those claims, is what I would expect from any rational or remotely objective person, and irrational unevidenced assumptions are what I’d expect from people who know no better.

So which is it, either your bs unevidenced claims are true, or nobody knows, those are mutually exclusive positions? Or are you outside of the demographic of “nobody” – who really knows? Fucking hilarious fair play.

Bollocks, the worst that can happen is a sort of ice cream headache, from laughing too hard at the stupidity of your claims. Just take a sip of some water, it will pass…the headache, not the stupidity of the claims…or the hilarity… :rofl:

No, it’s just a slight dehydration headache from laughing at your bs claims again.

Er, you have spent the past two days decrying science, and claiming you know better? Oh your god, the sheer hilarity… ah ah ah, headache, I need some water,it’ll be fine… :face_with_raised_eyebrow: :innocent:

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@Rohan01

Hey there, young man. Hope you are doing well. Noticed you are still having problems with videos in which people are making claims about the “supernatural” and such. Tell ya what, let’s try this…

I have a Ginormous Invisible Blue Universe Creating Bunny living in my garage. I call him Kyle (Carrots be unto him.). I’m the only one who can see him, and he talks ONLY to those who believe in him. But even if you don’t believe in him, I am allowed to relay messages for you if you have any questions to ask him. At the same time, I can ask him to do favors for you. Now, he may or may not actually do the favor(s) requested, depending on his mood. Rest assured, though, Kyle (CBUH) always knows what’s best for us. If you don’t believe me, just ask Cog and Skrit. They are familiar with Kyle (CBUH). And whether they admit it or not, Kyle (CBUH) has done many things for both of them. Sometimes they just get a little mad at Kyle (CBUH), though, for not giving them exactly what they want. Seems you just can’t always please some folks. :roll_eyes: Anyway, I would show you video proof, but Kyle (CBUH) is camera shy. But when I put carrots out for him, I go out the next day and they’ve been mostly eaten. I could send you pics of the uneaten parts of the carrots as proof. Oh, and the more money you donate to Kyle’s Holy Carrot Fund (CBUH), the more blessings Kyle (CBUH) will bestow upon you. Would you like the link to where you can send your donations?

See how that works?

(Edit to file for tax exemption.)

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No.

And in order to meet the 20 character min, I’ll say that particular notion is bollocks.

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@Rohan01 and @Tin-Man

I cleaned this thread early :broom: :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

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