Dan McClellan : The Bible Doesn't Say So

That’s objectively false. I don’t have to believe in any subjective experience of any other person. I can relate, objectively, to another persons subjective experience - but I need only do so as instructed from my own personal experience. I don’t expect you or any other person to accept my subjective experience without validation. I am pointing to the validation which is made possible by subjective experiences which align with each other. Not just any random subjective experience. And “No” - we do not have to accept any old random subjective experience. Who would be so stupid?

And yet that is exactly how the world functions and that is exactly the basis upon which people agree.

I’ve read the rest of your “banter” and it all is supported by one badly assumed axiom - that people cannot find commonality among their subjective beliefs.

I’m sorry you had to write the majority of that post and even more sorry that you expect me to respond to it - the fact remains: people can find commonalities in their subjective experiences.

Well, for that I am truly grateful. It doesn’t take much to make me happy. But for an atheist to agree with me on some level … that is an occasion for celebrating. I have already consumed my dole of wine for the night, so I will find other ways. But thank you, @CyberLN

I mean, for example, my everyday waking life - to whom do I need to submit objective evidence? For the bare assertion that my senses provide me with evidence of existence itself?

Except for validation by our own subjective claims…. One subjective claim may validate another subjective claim wherein the two align.

No it isn’t, and the only alternative is subjective bias, I have been explaining that to you endlessly. Bias for or against any idea is the definition of a closed mind, no one I hope imagines a closed mind represent strong objective reasoning.

A nice circular argument, that is also entirely subjective. Nothing in that neat circle can be objectively evidenced or verified.

There is no objective validation, just a bare subjective appeal to numbers, to claim the number of people who imagine something means it is true would of course be fallacious, argumentum ad populum, nothing more.

Yes, people generally reason very poorly, going to the time and trouble of creating logic to identify and discard poorly reasoned or weak arguments, would be rather pointless if this were not the case.

It remains a bare appeal to numbers, that this is poor reasoning produces imagined ideas that have mass appeal is irrelevant to whether they are true, or can be objectively evidenced as such.

As does the fact this is a) a bare appeal to numbers, and so b) is no reason to believe what they imagine to be true.

You do understand that can be true is semantically identical to can be untrue? It tells us nothing about the veracity of a subjective belief, which is rather the point, it is telling we don’t know whether it is true. Do we have any evidence deities are objectively or nomologically possible, no we do not, and the same applies for anything supernatural. So if all we have is an entirely subjective belief or claim, we have nothing worthy of credulity beyond simple bias.

No one has suggested that you need to do this. We each set our own threshold for personal credulity. This however is a debate forum, so when claims are presented here, they are rightly challenged and subjected to critical scrutiny.

Go back to Walter’s post above, see my response at the start of this post, explaining why this cannot not reliably or objectively verify anything.

And there it is, an argumentum ad populum fallacy. The number of people believe something tells us nothing about the veracity of that belief. People have imagined countless and wildly different deities, none of the deities they imagine are evidenced or verifiable in any objective way, that’s the commonality that is significant.

I explained earlier that zero objective evidence plus zero objective evidence = zero evidence, no matter how many unevidenced subjective claims you add to the original the sum total of the objective evidence remains the same as when you started, zero.

Now of course you don’t have to care, you like all others can believe whatever you want, but if you bring the claims here then those claims will be subjected to critical scrutiny, dems da rules…

Then what is the point of dialogue with you?

You begin from and stick to the notion that only your subjective experiences are real and nobody else’s subjective experiences are real. Thus you begin from and stick to a position of bias.

If you hold to this position then no other person can ever have their subjective experiences validated by you because you do not consider them equal to you. There can be no alignment because alignment can only happen between equals. But you reject equality from get go.

Until such time that you treat all others on an equal basis to yourself no alignment is possible and there is no point in engaging in dialogue with you. You have sealed yourself in your bubble of subjectivity, just as my diagram shows.

No. That is not exactly how the world functions.

The world functions by each of us yielding our subjectivity and meeting each other on as equal and objective basis of communication as possible.

For instance, you and Sheldon and I haven’t discussed the syntax, diction and grammar of the language we are using to communicate with each other, have we? No. Instead, each of us has yielded our subjectivity and without even asking each other, have agreed on common terms of syntax, diction and grammar. Thus we are all following the same rules of communication without even thinking about it.

Do you follow the rules of etiquette in polite society? Do you follow the rules of driving on the highway? Do you follow the laws of your community and your nation? Yes, you do. That is how you function with other people. By treating them as equals, respecting their values and standards, tolerating them as equals to you and agreeing to limit your individuality for the sake of communication and the good of the wider community.

You were raised to do this and through hundreds of thousands of years of evolution this is instinctive for you. Individuality and total subjectivity isn’t what it means to be human. Quite the opposite. What makes us all human is what we share with each other, what we agree with each other and how we cooperate with each other.

And for that to happen we all, to different degrees, yield our subjectivity.

And what do you think you’ve just described here?

You’ve made my case for me. The finding of commonalities between us means treating each other as equals. It means respecting each other as equals. It means following commonly-accepted rules, laws, values, standards and practices. It means not being sealed up in a personal bubble of subjectivity, as I show in my first diagram. It means linking yourself to others as shown in my second diagram.

Even the language you used to make your point agrees with me. Commonalities? What does that mean? You having something in common with someone else, perhaps? And how would you do that? By having a language in common, perhaps? By both following the same rules of grammar, syntax and diction in that language, perhaps?

But let’s toss the ball back to you on this one.

Please explain to me, without using the agree rules of syntax, diction and grammar of the English language, how these commonalities work. You, in your own bubble of subjectivity, use your own rules and your own language and me, in my own bubble of subjectivity, will use my totally different rules and totally different language and we’ll see how far we get finding commonalities between us, ok?

:red_question_mark:

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So, let’s me ask? am I right? By your metric, an “open” mind is more objective?

Can I, by your metric, confirm the “redness” of red with another person?

Of course the redness of red is a subjective experience which must be agreed upon among a number of people. People are free to subjectively describe “redness” to others, while never objectively being able to determine that what they experience is actually the same. Thus “redness” remains subjective. Should we not afford such subjective experience the status of knowledge?

I don’t know what you’re saying, so I’m going to move on. By the way, all of my responses were made to Walter in expectation that Walter would respond. I don’t mind arguing back and forth with you, Sheldon. But I was expecting Walter to respond. My answers were curtailed to him, specifically. Of curse, you can do whatever the fuck you want - it’s a free internet

So how would you ask one person to validate his experience of “redness” with another? What so called “objective” metric would you use?

Like in my example of “ego-death” - we are talking about a profound subjective experience which can be shared from one person to the next. It is not a mere “appeal to numbers”. It is a grounded and legitimate method of validating first person knowledge.

Uh no. I think you’re being unreasonably capricious. @CyberLN offered a kind of olive branch which stated that subjective truths are not necessarily less true than objective truths. Yes, the nature of the specific subjective truth will likely influence the “truth-value” of said truth. In any event, she was validating the gravity of subjective experience as a viable and valid source of knowledge.

I think you’re avoiding the question. Is sense stimuli a valid source of knowledge? That’s the concern.

This is pure validation from one human to another of lived experience. Is my experience of “redness” the same as your experience of “redness” …? as if the validity of the subjective experience relied on numbers??? It relies solely on the nature of the experience.

We must assume in good faith that the veracity of the claim “my experience of redness” coincides with “your experience of redness”. This is the foundation of all human experience and all ability of humans to share lived experience with another. It does not depend on the number of people who agree. It depends on the honest ability of people to communicate their experiences.

Regarding a lived experience of “God” - we’re not talking anymore about just “redness” - so I myself see many indications in the Old Testament that God has not changed in His revelations to others. He is a jealous God, a vengeful God - etc. Thought I have not met anyone who I could verify my experience with, I do not need to. For me, my experience is enough. To see it echoed in the Old Testament is also interesting - but ultimately of no further use to me. Nor, I imagine would the version of God told in the Old Testament be of any use to any free thinker of today.

Agreed.

I mean … my syntax and grammar may not point to the same “meaning” as your syntax and grammar. At some point we have to (not only) “express” ourselves, but also then drop the syntax and grammar and agree upon a shared experience. Language can only do so much in pointing to the objects of their discretion (Especially when it comes to spiritual matters) .

Certainly.

What do you want to agree upon? Should we agree upon what “redness” is? Should we agree upon what “ego-death” is? Should we agree upon what the “supreme being” is? We will not agree upon subjective experiences which are not shared … ??? We probably will agree upon what “redness” is - depending on how descriptive and poetic we are. But - “ego-death”??? Unless we have both truly experienced such a thing - description will do very little …

Too late my friend.

By agreeing that you’ve linked yourself to Sheldon and me you’re no longer isolated in your own bubble of subjectivity. This actually happened a long time ago, whenever you first started communicating with someone in this forum. And before that, whenever you spoke to someone face to face, telephoned them, texted them, skyped or zoomed them, wrote them an e-mail or wrote them a letter by snail mail. And before that, throughout all of your life, when you were being raised you were connecting and linking to others through verbal and non-verbal means.

You never were isolated in your own bubble of subjectivity and you never will be. None of us are.

The only thing you can claim, as can any of us, is that certain thoughts and feelings are exclusively yours and cannot be shared with anyone else. Nothing more than that.

Having said all of this I must agree with what you say about “meaning” and about language only being able to do so much. But this now is exclusively your problem and not mine. I’ve made my case and obtained your agreement on it. I therefore rest my case.

You however, have a mountain to climb. A mountain of your own making. By pointing out how language cannot properly address reality as each individual experiences it, haven’t you realized that language is all you have to make your case?

So, by your own definition, the very thing (and the only thing) you can use to make your case isn’t up to the job. All you can do, as Sheldon has pointed out, is to make bare, unevidenced claims about your beliefs using language - the very thing you’ve declared is unfit to do the job.

Thus, you’ve set yourself an impossible task.

Thank you,

Walter.

An open mind treats all idea the same, without bias for or against, this is not my metric, it is how the phrase is defined, and yes being open minded is an attempt to remove subjective bias, and thus an attempt to be more objective.

Believing our own entirely unevidenced and subjective experiences, over those of others, is of course the opposite, as it involves closed minded bias, believing them all inevitably leads to a violation of the law of non-contradiction.

You have used this false equivalence before, so firstly we cannot objectively verify that we all see red in the same way since the experience is subjective, but we can objectively demonstrate light exists and that light typically ranging between approximately 620 and 750 nanometers, is what we describe as red.

Unlike the bare subjective claims to have experienced, and therefore know, a deity exists.

No one has claimed this experience can be objectively validated, beyond the light we perceive typically ranging between approximately 620 and 750 nanometers. Though we know light exists, and this is objectively verifiable, unlike deities of course.

It is bare in the sense it cannot be objectively evidence beyond the subjective experience, the last part is a personal opinion, that I do not share, since I have explained I cannot base belief solely on unevidenced subjective claims, so it is not legitimate to me, nor would it be to the best methods we have for understanding reality, like science, and logic for example.

I can’t speak for what others believe, but I am dubious that is what she was saying, since the fact that a subjective unevidenced and ostensibly unfalsifiable belief can be either true, or untrue, does not in any way suggest parity between it and objectively verifiable facts. When we are ill we don’t listen to entirely subjective opinion, we listen to objectively verified scientific medical opinions, if we care that what we hear is reliably true.

You asked: “I mean, for example, my everyday waking life - to whom do I need to submit objective evidence? For the bare assertion that my senses provide me with evidence of existence itself?”

I answered in the part you quoted, I have emboldened it? If I ask you when you stopped beating your wife, you would I hope not accept the premise of the question, just as I didn’t here and explained why.

When you watch a conjurer and your senses see magic, do believe you are actually seeing magic? So the answer is the same as every other time this question was posed, our sense alone are unreliable and easily deceived. If what they sense is at odds with objective evidence / reality then I would trust the latter, not the former.

We have no way of knowing, we can only objectively verify that we are describing light with a wavelength of approximately 620 to 750 nanometers. We can also objectively verify that light is a form of energy (electromagnetic radiation) and that it exists.

The word red is not an entirely arbitrary description, but nothing is objectively red if it refers to our entirely subjective experience of it, rather it’s a descriptor we created to describe light with a wavelength of approximately 620 to 750 nanometers. The false equivalence is that we can objectively verify light exists outside of the human imagination, can you do this for a deity with anything beyond a bare appeal to the claim to have “experienced” one?

No we don’t, see above. A bare appeal to numbers is fallacious, and the number of people holding or expressing a belief tells us nothing (rationally) about the veracity of that belief.

Fair enough, for me it is not, as it must involve bias or irrationality. If I “experience” magic performed by a conjurer, then I must weigh what my senses are telling me, against the contradiction of objective evidence / reality.

Objective fasts are true regardless of what anyone believes or feels. Objective facts describe a reality independent of any mind, water freezes at 0°C, the shape of the earth etc etc…while subjective experiences are personal perceptions shaped by emotions, and biases.

This is a very pertinent point, one person claiming to have “experienced” a deity, or ten thousand people making the same claim, it’s the same unevidenced subjective claim, what’s common between all those claims is the dearth of objective evidence. To claim the larger number is evidence of the original claim without any supporting evidence is by definition a bare appeal to numbers.

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Ten thousand people might draw up to ten thousand different conclusions or interpretations, or in principle, even may have had ten thousand significantly different experiences. One thing I found was that even within the narrow interpretive systems I grew up around, there was quite a bit of difference between two people experiencing god or the supernatural, and even more difference in what they took away from it and did with it.

In fact I daresay that the definition of god and the supernatural was itself quite different. You had people who were good at ginning up “peak experiences” with strong emotional content, who just lurched from one mountaintop to the next, and you had people who said you had to see God in the mundane (the “still small voice”, etc). And everything in between.

Personally I just wanted God to have my back, or at least my family’s back, and wasn’t picky about how he did that. I didn’t ask much from him (and boy, did I get it!). After awhile I realized my life wasn’t playing out differently from any one else’s, and while that was in a way disappointing, I also tend to think of it as the Great Simplification, or if you prefer, “shit happens” or even “you’re not that special”.

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Your point about the number of people holding to or expressing a belief not being a guide to the correctness of that belief deserves to be put into a historical context, Sheldon.

Prior to Erastothenes everyone believed the Earth was flat. But their consensus of belief was false. Just as he demonstrated.

Eratosthenes - Wikipedia

During the time of Mozart it was commonly believed among the educated intelligentsia that the human ear could only hear a certain number of musical notes in the space of an hour. But that composer smashed this false belief by writing intricate and complex arias, duets and group harmonies. People’s ears registered ALL of the notes in his music - even if they didn’t like it or approve of it at first.

Prior to the Wright brothers building and flying in their aircraft in 1903, most of the world considered heavier-than-air flight impossible for human beings. Once again, the sheer weight of numbers of people holding a belief counted for nothing. In the end only objective evidence and facts count.

So, in every case objective facts and evidence trumps belief. Moreover, we all share in these facts because they are the brute facts of reality. They apply to all of us. We all have them in common. They act upon us equally, regardless of what we believe about them. Just as he inhabitants of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were vaporised by the brute fact of thermonuclear fission, regardless of whatever beliefs they may have had about it.

The objective reality we all inhabit is the true reality of human experience because, in the end, it us undeniable. But the subjective reality of everyone’s inner experience is not the true reality. If it were then it should be able to be shared and commonly experienced. But it can’t be.

As rat_spit has discovered. Because the only method we have of sharing our inner, subjective experiences is by language. But language can never do that for us. It cannot link our minds so that two people directly experience each others subjective minds. It can only report or describe what a person experiences. Language itself is not subjective experience itself.

Thank you,

Walter.

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That is not quite correct. The concept of a round earth floated around before that, starting around 500 BCE, the idea probably starting with Pythagoras, and Aristoteles later popularised the idea. Eratosthenes, however, was the first to successfully come up with a method to measure the size of the earth, around 250 BCE.

https://greekreporter.com/2025/10/24/ancient-greeks-round-earth/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Earth_estimates

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Thanks for the correction, Goml.

Once again I bemoan the triumph of irrational Middle Eastern religious belief over the rationalism of Greek thought.

This thread is pretty much a replay of that conflict, with subjective, revealed ‘truth’ warring with objective, observed fact.

Truly, there is nothing new under the sun and the only thing we learn from history is that we do not learn from history.

:slightly_frowning_face:

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What case? That I’ve received a personal revelation from God? Of this fact, who would I need to convince - apart from myself?

Well, you’re maybe right about one thing. Language alone couldn’t express the nature of my personal revelation. But you’re wrong about the other - I don’t need to make any case at all.

I can argue that a revelation of a Supreme Being requires something other than a limited being - so clearly language alone is not up to that task. Nor should it be. What is your point?

I’d like to know exactly what task it is you think I’ve set for myself?

Well, in any case - don’t be too open minded! You wouldn’t want the will of the universe imposing itself upon you, now would you???!!! :joy:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Your answer is that “red is not red for all”. Let me ask you a similar question. If you and I both walk out into traffic will we die when we get hit by a car?

Do we know that light exists because we see it, or because we’ve measured it in the lab on some piece of technology?

Many ill people pray to God for cures.

The charges were dropped. The crown did not see it as in the interests of the public to go forward with the case. So, not guilty. But, of course, if we’re being accurate - about three months ago. Haven’t really had another good chance since then - well more accurately “reason”. Haven’t had another good reason. :joy:

Okay. So you’ve pointed to one specific case where it is not … what about all the other cases?

Easily?

I really don’t see how you can draw a dichotomy between the senses and objective reality. How do you conduct yourself on a daily basis “trusting” objective reality and not the former? What does that look like in practice?

“Red is not red for all”.

Why do you use 620 and 750 as the the borders?

It’s a transcendental leap, in fact. When I accept that my “redness” is the same as my friends “redness” (within an 80 to 90 micrometer deviation) I am making a transcendent leap of knowledge.

Magic is one case where our senses are deceived. Hallucination another. Poor sense faculties and aging is another. Solipsism another.

Let’s say you show up for your birthday and it’s a suprise. All of your friends greet you at the door as you walk in. There they are! And they bring out the cake and the champagne! And they all sing “he’s a jolly good fellow”!

Would you operate on subjective or objective evidence to convince you that today is your birthday and your friends have thrown you a birthday party?

My point is simply this.

Language is all you’ve got to try and persuade us of the truth of your claims. Since you agree that language alone can’t express the nature of your personal revelation, then, by your own definitions, you can’t persuade of the truth of your own claims.

That is my point.

We are not persuaded by you and by your own statements, we cannot be persuaded by you. So quite why you want to persist trying to do so is beyond me. It’s like someone saying, ‘I cannot lift this rock because its too heavy for me’ and then carrying on trying to lift it.

But if you want to persist in this fruitless exercise, don’t let me stop you.

We know it exists as an objective fact, as this can be objectively verified, beyond our subjective experience of it, unlike deities of course.

They do, but there is no objective evidence that intercessory prayer has any discernible effect at all, unlike medicine based on objectively verifiable science.

The successes of science are countless in a mere few hundred years, for millennia humans used only their senses, and superstitious religious beliefs, and achieve nothing comparable.

Compared to methods that use objectively verifiable evidence, yes.

I didn’t, I said “IF my sense are at odds with objective reality, I did not say they always are. My statement was about which I would trust and why in those circumstances, and I would trust objectively verifiable evidence over my sense ALONE, every time, as it is far more reliable.

What we describe as red is objectively verifiable as a wavelength of light, we now this to be true as we can share those objective facts, but the experience of seeing it is subjective not objective, and no facts can be shared, thus we cannot know that our subjective experiences are the same beyond the objectively verifiable wavelength.

I think you mean why did people assign the word red to that wavelength, the same reason they assign descriptors to anything, in order to communicate more clearly.

This is not knowledge, since we cannot know that what we are experiencing is the same thing, only that in this instance we are describing light of a specific wavelength. That light of this wavelength exists is objectively verifiable, in contrast to claims to “know” a deity exists through entirely subjective experience, which cannot be objectively verified at all. The comparison remains a false equivalence, for that reason.

There is no conflict to examine yet in this hypothetical of course, but yes there are many ways one could objectively verify that claim, that would be more reliable than my own subjective experience. Again this is not equivalent then to a purely subjective claim. It is also a false equivalence in this context as it is a fairly trivial claim, and we know birthdays and surprise parties exist and happen as an objective fact, unlike deities of course, where all we have are subjective claims, or claims that fail when objectively tested.