Collective Rights ... Individual Rights

Stumbled on this … been over the Canadian Charter a few times with the boys in Social Studies … but this analysis gets one to thinking :thinking: - and I appreciated the historic background.
Got a better idea why my parents disliked Trudeau (Pierre, the dad) so much…


Have watched about half of that fascinating video. Have a few questions, because I know far too little about Canada

The guy in the video keeps saying ‘aboot’. Is he Canadian?"

Is Pierre Trudeau’s "Canadian Charter Of Rights and Freedoms " a defacto bill of rights? What power does it have at law?

Here in OZ, a referendum, with a majority of 51% of all voters must be held before our Constitution can be changed .Is that the same in Canada? Here,since Federation in 1901, 44 have been held. Eight passed. Australia has no Bill Of Rights.

The Video describes Justin Trudeau as ‘left wing’. That’s not the impression I have of the bloke. Certainly an astute politician,very fond of grand gestures which cost nothing.
The impression I have of Justin Trudeau is that Justin Trudeau’s raison d’ etre as a politician are the best interests of Justin Trudeau.

Recently,I’ve also had the impression that Trudeau is involved in some pretty heavy duty cronyism. Of course, I’m only an ignorant foreigner, what do I know.

Lol :joy: YES … I don’t say “aboot “ I say about, but a great many do say aboot…

The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms (French: La Charte canadienne des droits et libertés), often simply referred to as the Charter in Canada , is a bill of rights entrenched in the Constitution of Canada , forming the first part of the Constitution Act, 1982.

In law it is used for employment, civil protection from government (all levels) … etc.

Justin is definitely left …hates - with a PASSION Alberta… lol. He is a corrupt crony filling his and his families‘ pockets through the usual means of “trusts” and “charities”. He always says sorry (like he didn’t know better) AND at the beginning of Covid he wanted the Liberals to have a blank cheque without “opposition” to “slow it down” …hahahahah.

Always keep both sides and a few others in there (political) - it’s the only way they call each other out on each other’s shit.

New Zealand has a Bill of Rights.

It’s all about individual rights. There is a section on the rights of minorities, but it simply says that any person who belongs to a minority has the right to enjoy that minority’s language, culture, religion, etc.

New Zealanders also have freedom of entry into New Zealand and freedom of movement within New Zealand, as well as freedom from detention without due process, all of which are currently being violated under COVID-19 quarantine systems. And now the government has rationed entry for New Zealand citizens returning home and is detaining those that get in for two weeks. It’s also proposing to charge them $3,000 each for the experience, even though quarantine is arguably a public rather than private good.

So I guess the government giveth and the government taketh away. Quarantine is important, of course, but it just shows how fragile our rights are when things change suddenly.

You nailed it! Hahahahaha. Yup. Exactly.

My aunt, Marie Thérèse Killensérèse_Killens served multiple terms as a Liberal, including under Pierre Trudeau. She offered many insights into what really goes on. The liberals have an old guard that control most of the Liberal Party, and obviously Justin inherited favor from them. No politicians lives in a vacuum, they must have silent and powerful backers.


Gore Vidal said that by the time a person gets to be [US] president he has been bought ten times over*

*Source, 2013 Documentary on Gore Vidal. “The United States Of Amnesia”

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I’m tossing this observation in here. I have “listened” to both sides of BLM “Black Lives Matter”. I have viewed countless videos, considered commentary, talked with friends in various fields and still, I come out of this confused in my own “feelings” on the matter. (BTW - feelings for me is an emotional state based on my “beliefs” on a particular thought or statement - a result of thought patterns).

So, back to my personal observations. Both “sides” of the issue want a resolution. Both sides move from the “middle” (tweaking what is in place already) to “extremes”. Both sides have people that have taken a balanced approach and are working on improving the situation. Both sides are also using extreme measures to push through agendas.

I have heard, for example “there are a few bad cops :policewoman:t6: BUT the majority are good” - “there are a few rioters :zombie:‍♂ BUT the majority are peaceful protesters” AND each is using the “wrong” to implicate the “right” - eg. If the good cops/protestors allow the bad cops/rioters THEY are just as “guilty”.

THERE will never be “fairness” or “equality”. FACT! This is a pipe dream. Improvements can be made. More self/community/systems responsibility. A movement towards well-being - when “crime (both by authority and by civilians) is committed IT NEEDS to be addressed. NOT covered up. Not “excused”. NOT ignored.

There is no simple solution. Moving “poor kids” to better districts…nope. Police demanding respect instead of earning it…nope. Trying to “re-write” the idea of history…nope. Big reparation cheque$$$…nope.

How about, for a change- instead of each person, group/tribe, system …STOP blaming the “other” and start with itself? It’s own views.
It’s own beliefs about itself. It’s own responsibility to the “others”. It’s own responsible to the members of its own tribe/group.

The “Black Lives Matter” is one I embrace. But the final resolution they seek will take many generations, it cannot be achieved in a just a few years or decades.

When we talk about “systemic discrimination” or racism, it is deeply ingrained in our upbringing, culture, and from our neighborhood. All of us, everyone with no exceptions, have to be honest and understand we are carrying it individually. For some, it is powerful, for others, they have managed to minimize it.

I embrace the understanding of what the majority of the BLM is speaking of- the usurpers of this “idea” for other means, I reject.

Likewise, I embrace police reform and reforms in the criminal justice system … it is not “blind” - money and influence matters …eg.

In 2005, police in Palm Beach, Florida, began investigating Epstein after a parent complained that he had sexually abused her 14-year-old daughter.[7] Epstein pleaded guilty and was convicted in 2008 by a Florida state court of procuring an underage girl for prostitution and of soliciting a prostitute.[8] He served almost 13 months in custody, but with extensive work release. He was convicted of only these two crimes as part of a controversial plea deal; federal officials had identified 36 girls, some as young as 14 years old, whom Epstein had allegedly sexually abused.[9][10]

PLEA DEAL - the U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of Florida, agreed to a plea deal, which Alan Dershowitz helped to negotiate,[107] to grant immunity from all federal criminal charges to Epstein, along with four named co-conspirators and any unnamed “potential co-conspirators”.

He plead guilty in Florida state court to two felony prostitution charges, register as a sex offender, and pay restitution to three dozen victims identified by the FBI.

WORK RELEASE: While most convicted sex offenders in Florida are sent to state prison, Epstein was instead housed in a private wing of the Palm Beach County Stockade and, according to the sheriff’s office, was after ​3 1⁄2 months allowed to leave the jail on “work release” for up to 12 hours a day, 6 days a week.

NOW COMPARE : Statistics from Florida (2007 vs 2016). The average sentence for burglary, etc WAS longer than Epstein!

OR acknowledgement and changes to police brutality (the operative word)…

The “outliners”
MATTER because they happen, not just a one-off - perhaps in the minority (how many millionaires do you personally know) BUT it’s these points of discrepancy that outrages the public.

“ then the researchers gave one of the monkeys a grape instead of a cucumber. To a human this may seem like a minor detail, but monkeys go bananas over grapes, which they far prefer to cucumbers. “

The “cucumber” treat is bullshit to the monkey receiving it - it doesn’t give a fuck or understand it’s in an experiment- it does understand the idea of equal pay for equal effort task.
We are given the idea of an “equal” justice system - we understand it is far from that ideal. The “cucumbered” are pissed at the “grapes”.

In nature when a monkey works for a grape on its own, it isn’t begrudged by the others- there is this understanding also. BUT that is a different situation, isn’t it, to a lab setting in which a promise is broken and “favouritism” is shown (from the monkeys’ perspective).

I don’t hold the oppressed and the oppressors to the same standard. Doing so is an endorsement of the status quo, imo.

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I agree. A collective guilt can be systematic (policy, law, plea agreements, etc) however those that normally follow systems and we all work within them, know by-and-large their intention is for a fair distribution of safety and well being - however one-off abuses supported by this same system need to be examined and corrected. These step outside the intention of the law or system.

Edited to add: if these “one offs” add up to a well documented/evidenced system of predjudice then that needs a full out address. Eg. Same judges: same crime: same economic class: different color -
Longer sentence for one color over another… problem alert :rotating_light:

Fair enough. But sometimes it’s difficult to identify the oppressors. In the French Revolution, the Russian Revolution and the Chinese Revolution you had elites with agendas who stirred up and manipulated the masses. When all the smashing and dying were done the elites stepped forward to take control. And then they started to feed on themselves in a race to be the most radical, until the survivors eventually formed themselves into the worst tyrannies in human history. In the meantime, life for the masses got worse and worse.

I see a similar pattern in BLM. The majority of demonstrators are rightly angry about police brutality, but there is a radical Antifa elite with an agenda to collapse the whole of society and rebuild it in their own cracked image. I’m afraid that somebody is using somebody for a hidden agenda. Somebody is sitting the shadows pushing buttons and pulling levers.

At some point fairly soon, the majority will get frightened of what’s happening. And then Donald Trump will get reelected.

Me too… I’d like to see fucking politicians stop blurring the separation of powers. A good start would be to stop passing laws with mandatory sentencing for specific offences.

Unllikely in Australia. We don’t have a justice system. We have a legal system,which has little to do with justice.From time-to-time justice occurs. This is due to happy accident, rather than design.***

A cynical view perhaps. Not original. The first time I heard that sentiment was from a barrister friend over 30 years ago. I came to slowly agree over several years.

***From outside observation, it seems the US has done its best to develop a justice system.EG Miranda warning, free lawyer if you can’t afford one Introduction of a strict interpretation of ‘probable cause’. However, the US has also fucked a lot of that up with The Patriot Act and the Department Of Homeland Security.

Seems I was right when I opined it was Homeland Security tear gassing, arresting and holding protestors without due process. (a breach of habeas corpus)

I don’t think Japan has either. If you get arrested in Japan, there’s a 99% chance you’ll get convicted. You can held almost indefinitely without bail and interviewed without an attorney or even a tape recorder present. There are frequent miscarriages of justice. Several people have been proved innocent after decades on death row. We’ll never know how many innocents have been hanged.

That said, I’d trust a Japanese omawari-san (bobby) over a cop in NY, LA, or Queensland. They walk the beat, visit every house in their districts, and help people to find their lost property and pets. When danger happens, they run toward it and try to save people.

I’ve seen several court cases over imbalances in Japan’s electoral system. Because rural electorates are much smaller than urban ones population-wise, a rural vote can be worth up to 5 times more than than an urban one. People have challenged that in court, only be told that fixing it would be “difficult” or “unreasonable”. In one case the judges decided that a 4-1 imbalance was unacceptable but 3-1 was ok. Imagine if a judge in Australia said it was ok for a vote in rural Queensland to be worth 3 votes in Sydney.

I didn’t know that, but am not surprised. As far as I’m aware, a family is obliged to advise police if they have a guest staying overnight. (?)

I was aware the conviction rate in the PRC is about 98%, but not Japan. IN China the roles of the defence lawyer is to plead mitigation. Showing remorse will often save the person from execution. Much evidence is placed on rehabilitation. EG the PRC earned great face by ‘rehabilitating’ Pu Yi,the last emperor. He became a gardener.

Japanese and Chines cultures are very different from the west. They are shame-based, demonstrated by the concept of ‘face’. Personal feelings of guilt seem to be absent as far as I can see. A Japanese may commit sepukku from shame, but not from guilt…

In China, crime is seen as anti social brings shame to the entire family. Traditionally the family were also held liable and punished as well as the accused, and as harshly.

I understand Japan still has capital punishment. Do you know for which offences? The PRC still has 46, having removed 9 in recent years.

As far as I know, there’s no such rule in Japan. Though there has been some controversy recently over home-based BNB activities.

Yes. For murder. A couple of doctors who gave lethal drugs to a woman suffering from motor neurone disease (at her request) in exchange for payment are currently on trial for their lives. Several of the people who did the Tokyo sarin gas attacks were hanged.

I think the shame vs guilt idea came from The Chrysanthemum and the Sword by Ruth Benedict. She was an American anthropologist commissioned by the US government to write an instruction book for running Japan, which the US suddenly found itself occupying after the war. She produced a book full of all sorts of weird ideas without ever visiting Japan.

The shame part of it differs little from the “What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas” attitude that a lot of people have in the West. And I’ve certainly known Japanese people to be wracked with guilt over something they’ve done. A power plant engineer in Kobe turned on the power too soon after the big quake in 1995. Unfortunately there were lots of gas leaks and broken power lines, so that started a conflagration that killed thousands who were trapped in the rubble. The engineer later killed himself. Would you call that guilt or shame?

I really don’t know. I’d need to ask him. Each works for me.

What about the school kid who kills himself after failing his final exams? Feels shame so he kills himself to apologise to his parents? Or guilt, for what?

As much as I enjoyed visiting Japan, I was aware of my deep ignorance about Japanese customs . Fortunately, the Japanese were very tolerant of this ignorant outside-person.

From “The Devil’s Dictionary”: “The Japanese; People who have perfected good manners and made them indistinguishsable from rudeness” (Paul Theroux)

Despair maybe. Life in Japan has traditionally been a series of steps up a steep staircase. If you miss one of those steps at the age of 16 it might seem like your whole life is ruined.

The Japanese love foreigners who struggle with their language and customs. It’s when you start to fit in that a lot of people get edgy. They call you a “henna gaijin” (strange foreigner). You’re strange because you speak and act like a Japanese.