This is a great post. Many people on both sides are confused by the whole “son of God” thing.
It is because Christians are looking for some kind of brag about him being who THEY think/want him to be, they take “son of God” literally, assuming that’s how the writer intended it. This is (should be obvious) false. Christians love to think that Yeshua (Jesus) literally told the pharisees that he was God. Not only is this impossible in Judaism but that would have given them the legal evidence they needed to stone him on the spot. But they needed to discredit him. The only reason they cared about him at all was because of his popularity. But if you actually read their exchanges you’ll see that they were trying to twist his words. But if they were trying to twist his words then that begs the question; what did he mean? Because if he was saying the same thing they were twisting his words to say, then they wouldn’t have been twisting his words and he wouldn’t have called them liars for doing so. But he did.
John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Why, if they were telling the truth from what they “correctly” interpreted him to be saying, would he accuse them of all of this? What did they say that was wrong if they were supporting the understanding of the Trinity because he outright said he was “God the son”? Why did he react this way? Christians ignore his reaction because they want to ignore the truth of what he actually meant because they disagree with him. Isn’t that wild? How do you disagree with your “master”? It’s because Yeshua (a Jewish rabbi) isn’t their true master.
So here’s the problem. If Christians were taught Judaism (which they probably think they know) they would know what “son of God” means in Hebrew culture. Adam was called “Son of God”. David was also called “Son of God”. Son of God is not a PHYSICAL attribute. It is a spiritual attribute. 1 John 3 actually makes this clear and describes what it means to be sons of God. It has to do with your nature vs the nature of sin.
Furthermore, Yeshua makes reference to the law when he said “ye are gods”.
John 10:34
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
So what then? Should we take this literally as well because he said it? We’re all gods. Right?
Or…
Should we recognize the fact that jewish culture did NOT include everyone walking around thinking they were gods? Why not?
Understanding the Hebrew language will show you the same word for “god” was the same word used for judges and other positions of authority because “elohim” literally translates to “powerful” (this is the plural intensive; powers is the regular plural). The law isn’t saying “you are gods (plural).” It’s saying you are judges. But Christians didn’t bother learning Hebrew culture because Christianity began with Roman culture. They use the name “Jesus” instead of Yeshua because they base the pronunciation on Greek and Latin, not Hebrew. They (mostly) worship on Sunday because the main religion of Rome was sun worship. They celebrate the winter solstice with decorated trees as Christmas even though this is clearly a pagan holy day that violates Hebrew (OT) law. But it’s all considered okay because its European “culture”. Hebrew culture was simply partially appropriated. The parts that didn’t “matter” were the parts that would have taken power/authority away from their Roman Catholic Church. Rome created the Trinity. Not Yeshua. So Rome is the true master and all of this evidence is merely the proof.
Christians don’t typically want to believe this and I understand why. You grow up into a system and you don’t want to see that the whole thing is wrong. The human mind hates that kind of error because there are tons of synapses that connect based on what they believe as a result of that system. And so the brain has to, in a way, rewire itself in order to see how that system is wrong. What athiests need to learn how to do better is practice empathy and improve how we set the record straight. Atheists need to treat Christianity like a virus that can be cured. The people infected are not monsters. They are our friends and family. And they have been manipulated to believe these things in error. I have all the sympathy in the world for this because there was a time I could have used that myself. I am fortunate to not be under that spell anymore and Christians need to understand how GOOD that feels. You don’t have to be a servant to an imaginary being that pastors profit from. You don’t have to feel guilty when they pass the plate around for you to erroneously contribute 10% of your income while lying to you about what it is by using “tithe” instead of national “tax”.
And there’s no reason that Christian pastors shouldn’t know that. But they say nothing; just like they don’t talk about what happened during the Dark Ages and the millions of people killed and murdered by Christianity. They don’t talk about it but it happened. Why did it happen if they were being led by a true and living God? Why did this true and holy God sit back while people, claiming to be his servants, were killing people in his name? Why did he allow them to take and abuse slaves? Why did he allow them to use their superior weapons and deception to take the land from the Native Americans and then celebrate the “relationship” at Thanksgiving? Why did this God allow women to be burned alive or drowned just to prove they weren’t witches? Why were they allowed to spread false paranoia about demons and satanic influence which, if we’re judging the tree by its fruit, seems more apt an explanation for their own behavior; not that of others. How much does this story of mankind’s “salavation” from sin help to explain the sins of Christianity against humanity if they were… indeed… “saved”?
And Christians often wonder why Atheists don’t believe, thinking Atheists are lost when in reality the opposite couldn’t be more true.
If you highlight any text from a post, a quote icon appears, when you click on it, it will open a new post with the text quotes, and a link to the original post. This helps clarify who and what you’re responding to, and makes it easier to track back through a specific exchange to fact check what’s been said and by whom…
Actually, a number of religions, and figures have done this and it predates Jesus. Hinduism has had gurus/sages thousands of years before Christ. Zorastrianism pre-dates Christ, and some people believe has actually influenced many Jewish and Christian ideas, or may have been the source for many ideas. zarathustra is credited for founding Zorastrianism.
Jainism is very well known for establishing compassion/non-violence. Mahavira is credited for founding Jainism. According to Jainism however, he was the 24th Tirthankara.
So far, as far as I know of the above mentioned have all promoted compassion and non-violence. Many of them have done acts of righteousness, miracles etc…
“the book isn’t necessary”. I think John 1:1 disagrees with you, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
I have heard commentary by Christians that ‘the bible’ was a sort of blue-print for creation, and also Jesus himself is an incarnation of ‘the word’, and that its equal to god.
I believe Sathya Sai Baba claimed to be God, and many people believe(d) him. He died in 2011. Apparently, god can come down to earth in a human body. (avatar) and die a normal human death.
When I was a paramedic in EMS, I knew any number of schizophrenic and delusional patients who honestly believed that they were God . . . until I injected them with Haldol.
I rather wish he was still alive. I think more people are skeptical in USA, so the claim of being an avatar would probably not be accepted as much as in India.
Yes, there are a lot of gullible and believing people in USA. But usually not that someone is actually a god. Maybe they would believe inspired, or a ‘prophet’. Actually, millions of people believe that there are prophets alive today. Or accept ‘healings’, ‘words of prophecy’ etc… Some still believe these people, even when a prophecy has failed.
For example, one ‘prophet’ predicted Trump would be president, when Biden was elected. People still believe and follow that person, despite what actually happened.
Christians claim the only true and complete knowledge of god comes through first the Jewish scriptures, and then secondly from the Christian New testament. Why is that? why can’t there be others from other traditions around the world? Can there be other incarnations or avatars of god with different ethnic backgrounds?