Aykroyd probably wrote that in knowing his obsession with classic era singers and everything. . .
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None. I don’t think we’re making any claims by not believing in the existence of deities. There’s no evidence of any kind stating that Gods are real or ever were real. So I simply believe because of nonexistent evidence, that they just don’t exist. Until a Theist can provide court based evidence, then they would have my undivided attention.
We don’t make claims. We go off of evidence that actually exists.
A lot of the Christians that have come on here debating have claimed that they had “imaginary” evidence that their deity existed while not providing a shred of demonstrative, empirical, objective, physical, historical or circumstantial evidence. All they gave were claims.
Why do Christian’s lie and claim that we’re wrong? Do they do that to degrade us?
I don’t believe them. I think they’re wrong. I think they’re all full of shit. I don’t think they know they’re full of shit.
I don’ think we are wrong in wanting evidence for something that they claim to exist. I’m just making a point that when some Theists are losing an argument they dishonestly make false accusations that I’m lying and then they resort to quoting scripture and making the usual insults and saying they’ll “pray for you” or “Jesus died for your sins”. I’ve also been called a liar by two different Christians and it’s annoying. I don’t even know why they called me a liar. Maybe it has to do with some silly scripture from their shit rag of a book. All I asked was for them to demonstrate evidence of a deity and they got pissed about it.
None at all as we don’t go around claiming this thing or that thing exists without backing up said claims. As an Atheist myself, I have yet to see any empirical, demonstrative, objective, physical, or circumstantial evidence pointing to the existence of any deity. I have yet to see any historical or archaeological evidence of Jesus too. The one they make more claims about where I live then they do their patron deity.
I don’t know. When I declared myself an Atheist at the age of 18. My mom couldn’t take it. She was pissed. My mother asserted that she thinks I believe in “God” and that I’m in denial. That I’m mad at “him”. When that sore attempt failed .Then she told everyone I was going through a phase. That didn’t work either. Then she got pissed and she claimed it was the devil fooling me. Well that sore attempt didn’t work and we didn’t talk for a year. Her pastor claimed that Atheism was Satanism and that I was doing devil worship. Boy that claim really pissed me off. I guess liar is the term that Christians think we Atheists are working with the devil to “convert” them.
Uh…you can’t convert to Atheism. You de-convert from your previous religion to not having one.
My family eventually accepted it. My grandmother supported me when I declared myself an Atheist and we talked about it to some great lengths. She made a remark that she quit believing in those superstitions a long time ago. My mother had thrown me out and there was really no place for me to go. So I lived with my grandmother and I was sore about it for a long time. But, at least I don’t have to listen to her superstitious bullshit anymore and the Baptist mind games, bullshit spiritual talks, and all of those attempts to re-convert me into a religion that I hated and wanted nothing to do with.
Now I just turn a deaf ear to her when she starts in about it.
I believe it when a fellow Atheist says they don’t believe in deities. I’ve been saying the same thing over and over. I have a bleak understanding why Christians challenge it anyway and “claim” that their “deity” is real and make claims that I will be punished for not believing in it. I was about 9 years old when my mother forced it down my throat, she used the common tactics that Christians use to scare you into believing in a Skyfather by saying that you have to follow “his” rules or you go to “Hell” to burn forever. It’s very manipulative. I was a kid, that caused me to have really bad anger problems towards her and her entire church. Ever since then I’ve had little tolerance for most Theists. They start in with the superstitious bullshit, and I think they’re fucking nuts. It’s not real to me at all because, No evidence.
You. You know yourself better than anyone. Not the silly Christian having a go at you. I don’t like it when Christians make up shit and try to tell me what I believe or what I should believe. At that point they’re just being manipulative.
That’s how I feel. When I make my point in debates against Theists and they start trolling after I asked them to provide evidence multiple times, while they evade and deflect, is aggravating. I feel the debate is no longer relevant when they start in with unnecessary bullshit.
Here’s a little food for thought. One of the more subtle examples of “God’s Good Grace” in the bible…
The story is told of how the dogwood tree was once a very large and sturdy tree way back in the days of Hay-suse, right? Also, it was the tree used to build the cross on which Hay-suse was hung, right? And it stands to reason god created that tree perfectly as he wanted it to be, KNOWING that tree would be used to build the cross on which his “son” would be crucified. With me so far? Okay, so, I find it very interesting that the dogwood tree (through no fault of it’s own, having zero control over how it was created or how it would be used) gets CURSED (aka: Punished) to being a small fragile tree for the rest of time by the very god that created it. Even though the god KNEW it would be the tree used for the cross. Makes perfect sense, right? Yep, god is good.
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Hey there, Mr.D. Hope you don’t mind my saying, but I sense a bit of frustrated anger in your response to “debating” with theists. And, in all fairness, I do understand that anger and frustration. But would it help you to know it does not have to be that way? If you don’t mind, please humor me for a moment as I provide you with a bit of insight from my own experiences.
You said you were 18 when you pulled away from religion? Well, FWIW, I’m 53 now, and it has been just a little over four years since I fully escaped the clutches of my Christian (Baptist/Methodist) indoctrination. And it was several of the folks here on the AR who played a big part in helping me make that break. To be honest, it took me a couple of months or so to become comfortable with my new “self”. After all, as a kid, an “atheist” was the most vile and most EVIL thing a person could ever be. However, once I got past that, the gloves came off here in the debate rooms. As any of the “veterans” here can tell you, I would often become a viciously raving predator going after some of the regular theists we had here at the time. Years (decades) of pent up resentment and frustration got unloaded over the course of a few months. And, yes, while it may have been therapeutic for me in some ways, it was certainly NOT very productive to the debates. It took the infinite patience and the understanding of a very wise mod we had here to finally make me see that. And so did end my slashing rants of vengeance.
Ya see, here’s what I learned. Having “been there done that” myself, I can actually totally relate to why most all Christians (or any other religious sect) are so terribly reluctant and/or scared to relinquish their chosen faith. Even if they are having doubts, and even if a part of them KNOWS some of what they believe is absurd/ridiculous, it DOES NOT MATTER. The sad and unfortunate truth is that in many (most) cases, it would literally be easier to convince them to have an arm or leg removed than it would be to have them give up their belief in god. And there are NO AMOUNT OF FACTS that would convince them otherwise. And I can tell you from personal experience, taking that step off the edge and fully acknowledging you no longer believe is FUCKING SCARY. And most folks simply don’t want to face that fear.
Therefore, it is very rare now that I become even remotely angry with those who still cling to a religion. Depending on the situation, my reactions most often are a varying mix of amusement and pity. Bottom line is, I am the one who is FREE, while THEY are still trapped in the delusion. So why should I be angry about that? They can call me whatever they want, and condemn me to hell, or tell me I’m a Satan worshiper, or whatever. Why should I care? They are only trying to project their OWN fears onto ME, but I know better now. They are still terrified of “the boogeyman under the bed”, but I no longer believe in their “boogeyman”. Whenever one of them starts trying to “intimidate” me with that crap, I just smile, chuckle, shake my head in pity, and bid them a good day. And I sincerely do wish for them to have a good day, because I know how tortuous it is to go through life having that constant fear. It’s just that simple.
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18 was when I had a way out without repercussions. I wasn’t living with my mom anymore and if I had come out and declared my atheism and expressed my abhorrence and loathing for Christianity. She would have made my life a living hell even more. She would taken away my freedoms in her house hold. She would have involved the pastor sooner.
She did go to the pastor when I openly and consistently expressed my love for my Atheism. I told her I had become an Atheist at the age of 13 and hid it from everyone. I told her I believed in science, evolution, and anthropology. That I didn’t believe in the existence of fairy tales like God, fictional prophets, and magic.
Before I quit hiding it & the 3 years I lived with her from a custody battle she had with my father. I was already fighting her about going to church. I didn’t get along with the other kids in youth group. I didn’t like listening to the youth pastor. They believe alcoholism was a curse that got passed on to other kids from their parents and a whole mess of other superstitious claims that were thrown around.
It was bullshit, I didn’t want to hear it anymore. I would purposely fall asleep in the pew by staying up late at night playing PlayStation 2 until 3 or 4 in the morning. I honestly didn’t want to hear the pastor preach about Jesus or the usual round of bullshit prejudices and stereotypes (Homosexuals, The Rich, Atheists, Satanists, and Pagans) that Christians have for people they feel are lesser than them.
Then my mom wanted me to get Baptized. I did it to shut her up. So I was like okay knowing that it wasn’t actually “magical holy water”. That they filled this fancy tub up with city water and the pastor was going to say some “magical” words for their imaginary friend “Jesus and the great holy trinity” and the silly crowned Christian leader idiot would dunk me in the water 2 or 3 times while he went on his silly sermon.
What a fucking waste of time that was. Because when you sit down they make more claims saying that Baptism doesn’t fully save you. You can still go to “Hell” if you don’t do right and blah blah blah. I just love the levels of control and mind fucking that they incorporate in this fucking mind fuck of a religion. Manipulate, manipulate, manipulate. That’s all it does. All they do is preach the love of “Jesus” and if you don’t abide by the rules “God” will punish you. They treated Jesus like he was the good cop and God like he’s the bad asshole cop. That he is a loving deity and blah blah blah and if you don’t do as he wants, he’s going to slap you in "hell’ and blah blah blah.
Just thinking about it fucking pisses me off.
The more I heard the silly superstitions and the Theistic judgmental sanctimonious attitudes from the fucking members from any church I went, the more aggravated I felt. All the bitches thought they were better than me. All the men were fucking religious pussies who thought they were “gods” little messengers and needed to go out and proselytize and spread their bullshit religion because the church pastor told them and their Bible said so.
I was like FUCK ME. You actually believe in this bullshit? This is like believing in Santa Claus when I was little. These idiots go on and on about how great this God is and you never see or hear him. Where is the old fucker at? And then you later find out that Santa was never real. That he never existed. Same shit applies here.
I always left the church in a bad mood after the service. My tolerance for it just became less and less.
The more of this bullshit I swallowed, the more they shoved down my throat. Chew and swallow. Chew and swallow. It even pisses me off that my mom, her husband, and my siblings believe in this stupid bullshit. They’re all blind folded by it.
What’s worse my ex wife tried forcing it down my throat and made me go back to the church again. I hated that. I’ll never do it again. I’m done with Christianity. I want no part of it. I won’t even get with a girl who believes in “god”.
I’m aggravated because it was shoved down my throat. I wasn’t given a choice. I feel like I was lied to. Because there’s no evidence saying this shit is real. In fact there’s more historical and empirical evidence contradicting the claims in the Bible.
I don’t have a major problem towards a Christian unless they start proselytizing and trying to shove their bullshit superstitious beliefs down my throat again. I won’t tolerate it.
Yeah, funny how that works, right? 
I was basically told that once I was baptized, I would go to heaven NO MATTER WHAT I ever did from then on. (I was eight, by the way. And it was the preacher, my Mom, and my Granny who approached me one evening during vacation bible school.) Well, even at that young age, that sounded a bit odd to me. Naturally, I asked questions. What if I cursed and drank and did drugs? What if I got a tattoo? (Yes, I was thinking about tattoos at eight years old.) What if I robbed a bank? What if I killed somebody?.. Well, apparently god would still love and forgive me… But what if I did not get baptized?.. Well, god would still love me, and he would still let me into heaven as long as I loved him and believed in Jesus and asked forgiveness for bad things I did… Sooooo, why get baptized?.. Because you will have a place in heaven no matter what you do. HOWEVER, you must NEVER stop loving god, and you must ALWAYS believe in Jesus. Oh, and you CANNOT question what god does. To question god means you are doubting god, and those doubts are just the Devil trying to lead you astray. Not loving god and not believing in Jesus is the only way you will be sent to hell… Oh, okay. So, uh, does that mean I can go get a tattoo and start drinking when I’m old enough?.. WHAAAAT??? Absolutely NOT! Those things are SINS! And god does not like it when we sin. People go to hell for sinning… Huh? But, wait. You said if I get baptized god would let me into heaven no matter what I did… Yes, god will still love you and forgive you, but god sends people to hell for sinning. (Well, I went ahead and got baptized. Suffice it to say, though, my little eight year old mind was properly warped by that conversation.)
It honestly never made much sense to me, but I basically just went along to get along from that point. Besides, in all fairness, I do not recall ever being mistreated in the ways many of my friends were, or in the ways you said you were treated. I’m lucky that my Mom and other family were actually loving, and they even encouraged me and my two younger siblings to think for ourselves and be independent. So, all in all, my childhood was a fairly happy one. Even so, the dreadful thoughts of Satan and hell were never far from my mind, and they kept me mired in a bog of doubt and indecision throughout my childhood and well into my adult years. I NEVER felt comfortable walking into a church or being around any type of religious discussions. I avoided those things like the plague as much as possible once I was old enough to choose whether or not to go to church.
What’s your point? We were ALL lied to. And with a few rare exceptions, none of us were really given a choice. In some form or fashion, we all had it shoved down our throats, whether directly or indirectly. Some in a fairly mild manner, while others who were less fortunate literally had it beaten into them. Hate to tell you, but you are not unique or special in this area. What you ARE, though, is one of the very few who managed to finally escape it. Believe me, I REALLY DO understand your aggravation and resentment. I get it. Totally understandable. The question, though, is how long do you plan on holding on to all that anger? Because whether you like it or not, or whether you believe it or not, the longer you hold that anger just means the longer your discarded religion will continue to control you. That which angers you can control you. Do you really want to spend the rest of your days still being controlled by the very thing from which you escaped? What a waste of Freedom.
As I said, for many years I hated being around ANYTHING that had to do with religion, Christian or otherwise. ABSOLUTELY did not want to discuss it. I could not stand the doubt and dread it made me feel. Nowadays, though, I feel totally at ease (and sometimes even whimsical) if I have to enter a church or other place of worship. Hell, I’ve even participated in a few Pagan rituals over the years since my “escape”. (My wife is Pagan.) Moreover, I actually ENJOY having discussions about various religions, and I am always fascinated to learn how closely related many of them are. My mind and conscious are more free and my thinking is more clear now than ever before in my life. To achieve that, however, you must learn to let go of all that anger and resentment. Otherwise, you might actually be better off to just “return to the fold”, ask for forgiveness, and maybe find comfort back in the cage from which you escaped. Your choice.
And so, you know they are fools. You admit to yourself they are fools. And still you demand reasonable behavior from them? Why? It’s a bit like teaching rocks to swim isn’t it?
Correct a fool and he will curse you for the correction.
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I can’t change the world, I can’t even influence how others feel and think. The only thing I can do is control how I feel and think.
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And most of the time we even forget that we can do that. But then, it’s so freeing to remember it now and again.
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Have you ever stopped to think how blindfolded YOU ARE by your anger? In a way, your animosity toward them just helps to feed their own justifications that they are right in their beliefs and you are wrong in not believing. Whether it is real or not, their faith/belief in their god gives them comfort and peace of mind. It is their “magic blanky” they tote around to make them feel secure. Why does that make you so angry? I could understand pity. Maybe even a little mild amusement. But not anger. You no longer need that “magic blankie”. You outgrew it at an early age. Most people NEVER outgrow it. Absolutely nothing you can do about that. What you CAN do, however, is get rid of your anger. Start being a positive example. Start showing them and others you can be just as happy (or happier) and have a better life WITHOUT their god than they can have WITH their god. Show them the tolerance they never offered to you. Otherwise, when it comes right down to it, you are really acting no better than they are. AND… You are still allowing religion to control you.
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Fair enough. I’ve been going about it all wrong.
No. Because I became extremely angry and depressed when it was being forced on me after my mother’s near death experience. When I was 15 she became a complete religious zealot and really forced it on me at that age. She took away the things that made me happy. As a result of this control and being subjected to her church. I almost committed suicide. No, I really did. I came that close to using one of my step father’s guns to blow my brains out. It was to the point where I fantasized about it on a daily basis. I was even having word vomit about it. She’d say: lets go to church, I’d say: sure after I blow my head off. I was done going to church and listening to everyone’s bullshit superstitions about an imaginary skyfather that didn’t exist. I was quite certain of it because there was no evidence that stated otherwise.
So when I moved out. I was really happy. I didn’t have to put up with it anymore. I declared my Atheism openly to those who didn’t know or already knew that I was and I picked a big fight with her about it. I got way more enjoyment out of antagonizing her for what she did to me. She shoved it down my throat and now I was going to vomit it back all over her. She deserved it. And man I raged at her. I was so fucking pissed off. I had been holding it in for so long. We didn’t talk for a year and for a while she’d come to me and beg me to believe in her deity.
She finally accepted it in a way.
What’s funny is. She didn’t buy it when my ex wife forced me to go to church. My ex wife gave me an ultimatum, Christianity or divorce. I lied and said Christianity. My mother always knows when I lie. She can tell and she knew this charade was an act. She knew why I was doing it.
But you know what? I couldn’t keep up the Christian husband act. I hated going. I hated the sermons. I hated hearing the claims. It really made things worse. I eventually reneged on that deal after my ex wife quit antagonizing me about it and we just carried on until our divorce.
I really learned from that lesson. It sucks. Some girls are really hot and just care about sex early on in new relationships. But when they’re a Christian. That’s a problem for later in the relationship. Eventually they want you to go to church and they want this and that and I can’t give them those things. I am mentally and completely unable to give them the dreamy Christian husband type. I’m not going to be able to go to church and pretend to be someone I’m not. I don’t believe in the existence of her deity. To me, they’re all imaginary. Going to church is a form of mental torture and reminds me of my forced indoctrination.
Kind of hard to force yourself to believe in a religion that you’re quite certain isn’t real. So, I mean it when I say that there’s no going back. I’ll be an Atheist for the rest of my life until there’s hard evidence that a deity exists and nothing else will convince me.
This week’s prize winner for Most Disturbing Statement, I think.
Can’t figure out if that’s a version of the false dichotomy or just outright emotional manipulation. Yikes.
I dare say it is a venomous combination of both.
You sound like the teenage daughter of one of my cousins. Anyway, okay, I’m pretty sure we all get it already. You have established beyond any shadow of a doubt you had religion shoved down your throat and you are pissed about. Check. Got it. Fairly certain nobody questions that at this point. Now, moving right along, I still say, “So what?” What makes YOU any more special than anybody else who ever dealt with it? (Hint: You are NOT special or unique in that area.) That being established, the question is, “What will you do about it NOW?” You have said you already had your moments of rage and rants and “vomiting it all back into your mom’s face.” And you are now out on your own, leading your own life. So how much longer do you plan on holding all that rage and still allowing religion to control you? It’s a shame that you managed to beat the odds and escape from the bonds of religion, only to STILL have yourself negatively influenced by the religion in which you no longer believe. To me it’s like not believing in Santa, but then getting pissed off because many little kids DO believe in Santa.
Well, duh. Once you have seen through the delusion, it is quite difficult to UN-see it. And in case you missed it (which you apparently did), I was being facetious when I made the statement you should “go back to the fold and ask forgiveness.” Oh, and if it helps any, here is another little tidbit for you to consider. I have stated on here many times how I am not a “worship” type of guy, regardless if it is a god, person, or thing. Just not my style. That being said, I would especially NOT worship the god of the bible even if it was somehow proven to be real. I’m not particularly fond of narcissistic bullies.
Anecdotally, I have been in situations with both pastime and professional activities where a unisonically praisey praise of the activity have made me feel as if I was about to join a cult. For some of these, I came along some of the way because it was just plain fun and interesting. But at some point some people took it that little bit too far, making it cringe-worthy for my part. And the part of my brain that protests against cult-like behaviour kicked in. I just don’t handle that kind of unisonically praisey praise of stuff very well. I prefer a more measured approach.
Yep. I know what you mean. Had a couple or so experiences with that sort of thing over the years myself. I’m all about having fun and being around a group of folks who have a common interest they enjoy doing together. But I’ve known a few who would take some of those activities to the “extreme” point of practically shutting out all other activities and basically snubbing anybody else not part of their “group” or mindset. Human psychology can be a funny thing sometimes.
Not necessarily. You have been going about it in a way that worked well in one situation. The problem arises when you use the same technique for all situations. When you treat every situation the same, and you do not get the same result, frustration ensues.
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