Continuing the discussion from I will never understand it:
quote=“Cognostic, post:101, topic:2982, full:true”]
You don’t want to go there. That is exactly what helps beliefs change. A good smack down and holding reality in your face is exactly what forces people to admit they are wrong and this leads to change. (I am simply responding to your post. YOUR POST.) I’ll not take sides and to be honest, I completely missed anything Mr. M. said about women. I just haven’t been paying attention. With that said; we don’t always know what is going to help change someone’s mind. But a good smack down is certainly one of the things that can do it.
Calling someone a bigot does work when it is true and you have the facts to back it up. Many times I have pointed specifically to the bigotry in the bible and left Christians mumbling incoherently over things they have never looked at honestly. It may not have pulled them out of their faith, but it will certainly be the last time they try to use a moral argument with me. (I’m thinking of 2 current co-workers who decided to talk morality one day.)
Overall, I am (Once Again) Only responding to ‘your’ assertions. I am not defending N’s position but I am defending his right to make the assertion and as distasteful as the comment may appear, N. seems to feel strongly about a point, and really wants to push that point home. Well… His timing is probably at the most memorable time he could have ever possibly selected.
Yep, a lot of people are going to have a problem with the timing. I fully get it. I’m also absolutely certain N. is aware of it. I think we simply have to agree that we found the post a bit shocking in the midst of this particular thread. I know I have been sitting on my stupid comments, Tin Man has admitted the same. N’s timing just caught us all off balance. In the end, I really think this is the only real complaint… ‘Bad Timing.’ Yet, as I have stated above, "If someone really wants to drive home a point… well; you and I are in complete disagreement. “Kick them when they are down,” I say, “and don’t let them forget.” (My methodology comes from interventions with drug addicts and alcoholics. Never let them escape the wrath of their own stupidity. Grind it in until they hit bottom. And then, grind some more.) This will bring about real change. (I won’t get into what kind of change. Measures that are regarded as punitive have mysterious outcomes at times and they don’t always go as planned. Still, they do foster change. ) Okay, I’m done. I hope you see this in light of ‘What causes change.’ and not as a part of any support for N. or M. It is a response to YOUR post.
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quote=“Cognostic, post:101, topic:2982, full:true”]
You don’t want to go there. That is exactly what helps beliefs change. A good smack down and holding reality in your face is exactly what forces people to admit they are wrong and this leads to change. (I am simply responding to your post. YOUR POST.) I’ll not take sides and to be honest, I completely missed anything Mr. M. said about women. I just haven’t been paying attention. With that said; we don’t always know what is going to help change someone’s mind. But a good smack down is certainly one of the things that can do it.
Calling someone a bigot does work when it is true and you have the facts to back it up. Many times I have pointed specifically to the bigotry in the bible and left Christians mumbling incoherently over things they have never looked at honestly. It may not have pulled them out of their faith, but it will certainly be the last time they try to use a moral argument with me. (I’m thinking of 2 current co-workers who decided to talk morality one day.)
Overall, I am (Once Again) Only responding to ‘your’ assertions. I am not defending N’s position but I am defending his right to make the assertion and as distasteful as the comment may appear, N. seems to feel strongly about a point, and really wants to push that point home. Well… His timing is probably at the most memorable time he could have ever possibly selected.
Yep, a lot of people are going to have a problem with the timing. I fully get it. I’m also absolutely certain N. is aware of it. I think we simply have to agree that we found the post a bit shocking in the midst of this particular thread. I know I have been sitting on my stupid comments, Tin Man has admitted the same. N’s timing just caught us all off balance. In the end, I really think this is the only real complaint… ‘Bad Timing.’ Yet, as I have stated above, "If someone really wants to drive home a point… well; you and I are in complete disagreement. “Kick them when they are down,” I say, “and don’t let them forget.” (My methodology comes from interventions with drug addicts and alcoholics. Never let them escape the wrath of their own stupidity. Grind it in until they hit bottom. And then, grind some more.) This will bring about real change. (I won’t get into what kind of change. Measures that are regarded as punitive have mysterious outcomes at times and they don’t always go as planned. Still, they do foster change. ) Okay, I’m done. I hope you see this in light of ‘What causes change.’ and not as a part of any support for N. or M. It is a response to YOUR post.
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Thanks, Dave. Was wanting to get involved in this discussion because I am very interested in psychology and always enjoy learning about different methods of dealing with people. Sure, I have “developed” my own methods that have served me well over the years, but there is nothing wrong with having a few other tools in my belt to use.
I do believe that. He was given plenty of chances to repudiate his statements (which are at the very least obvious violations of the old AR rules) but all he did was throw more insults. Now that he’s been around awhile and people are starting to become friendly; he’s looking here for support: it is the perfect time to remind him all fucking alt-right, misogynistic, conspiracy theorist mud he has slung here. Maybe he will even repudiate some of it, but I’d wager against it.
I hope things work out for his younger female family member. I hope the people of the world have more respect for her than mr.macabre has for women in general. It would be nice if we could get people to treat random women with the respect they expect others to show for their female family members. What do you think mr.macabre would do if someone insinuated his niece/daughter/whatever got to where ever they happen to be in life by sleeping with men for favors? Fuck him.
Thank you for taking this unrestricted opinion to this thread. That was my intent, to allow mrmcabre (no matter one’s opinion of him) a place to seek solace and vent his frustration and pain.
This thread, just the opposite, feel free to vent your opinion.
@mr.macabre13 Does not need to visit this thread.
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Interesting, because this is exactly what we do to theists when we insist on evidence. They have made the claim now what are the facts, what evidence do they have. I do the same thing to Atheists when they come blowing in here calling Christians stupid or when the blindly assert 'There is no God."
I demand to know which god they are talking about and how in the hell would they know it? God is an unfalsifiable claim. You can not prove it false. I personally believe I can demonstrate the likelyhood of every god I have yet encountered to be false. But that is a personal belief and not a fact. “Pinning down means looking at what is real. Facing the facts.” It is exactly what we do when theists enter the site. We hold them accountable for their comments. We point to the fallacious logic. And we certainly don’t offer much sympathy, unless, they are being honest and genuine in their interactions. Most are not, but we have had a few.
Is it playing god to point out what is real, objective and verifiable? Is it playing god to stop the games and hold people accountable for the things they say and do? I don’t think so. There may be times when it is more or less appropriate but I don’t regard it as God like to pin anyone down to reality.
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Don’t we already have a place for that?
Atheist Republic encourages all atheists to speak up and voice their thoughts so if you are unsure about how your opinions and ideas may be received by others, that is one thing you need not worry about any longer because at the Atheist Hub, you have found yourself a family of concurring individuals…
I don’t disagree with that assessment at all. That methodology works, my main concern as I said is that I think this is a catalyst that can lead someone off on a wilder tangent.
I believe your methods work for you, but you clearly have already stated you are a teacher who demonstrates clear understanding of a higher concept of psychology than most. I think this method should only be used with a good understanding of psychology. It’s much like a glass dagger, it’s an exacting and precise methodology layered with tactful measure, but I find it rigid and unforgiving and can go disastrously wrong. Certainly that is as we seem to have agreed personal preference.
I think it is a much more in person method of dealing with someone. Over a forum with no gauge of what mental state a person is in, to me in my opinion, it’s a shot in the dark. Is this person in a “stable” mental frame of mind? I don’t find pinning someone down to reality a sure fire method of netting a meaningful change. It will certainly make a mental change in someone, but I find it too easy to drive them deeper into their own warped reality. Also I don’t wish to drive someone to a dark place where they might consider self harm. Plus the possibility of a person becoming excessively overwhelmed by a line of questioning of a reality they don’t grasp pushing them toward anger and potentially and outward display. We live in a time where violent acts happen over trivial nothingness. I don’t like to put that kind of pressure on someone with clear mental illness. Again this is personal preference developed from my personal experience.
I continually think of my domineering father, his habitual and unflinching character assassinations almost drove me to a point of committing a very very violent act. In my then theist mind I really couldn’t have handled a methodology like yours coming at me. I see this personal weakness in me, that tendency toward rage and anger. I would most likely have become a martyr of my former religion if pushed. I continually have to question what could I have done or become being pushed like that? So I don’t so much as want to criticize your method as much as offer my opinion of caution.
Maybe god complex is a bit of a stretch, I can give on that. It is certainly an aggressive tactic and a bit domineering though for my taste. I admire the approach, but as I said I think it is very much a method using a hammer. Which has great affect, but where will said affect go?
If I call around and find a sick relative somewhere, will I be allowed to publish misogynist statements at AR also?
You have the chronology backwards. First you must make offensive comments then months later discover a loved one suffering.
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I don’t care? LOL. Seriously, I hold people accountable for what they say. Any hint of mental instability; a threat of suicide or a threat to harm another and I am a mandated reporter. The person goes to the psych ward. It’s that simple. As a client, you are not going to sit and talk crazy shit in front of me. What then if the client goes out and harms someone? What then if the client does kill themselves? No. You don’t get to be crazy without consequences. There are real-world prizes for real-world problems. More like a glass sledge-hammer.
Look at the questions again. No one is doing that. What do you really want with your life and what are you really doing to get what you want? Pretty basic. We are not talking psychopathology here.
What is a mental illness? It really depends on what model you are using. There is the medical model. Not many use the psychoanalytic model but it is still out there and in use. There is the behavioral model. There is a family systems model. There is a Gestalt model. REBT (Rational Emotive Behavioral Therapy) has a model. Existential Therapists have a model, Humanists have a model, I mentioned temperaments and recalled temperament theory also has a model of pathology (Different temperaments present pathology in different ways. The NT is the schizophrenogenic. The SJ is the somatascizor. The SP is the addictive personality. And the NF is the dissociative. Can’t even believe I remember that BS. (Do you want some more models. There are at least 50 more that I can quickly cite.)
This is the reason we use the DSM - 5. We track symptoms, add them together, and magically come up with a 'Mental Disorder." Are you aware of how loosey-goosy the field of psychology is? Psychology is called, ‘a Soft Science’ for good reasons. (Two different psychotherapists will diagnose the same person with different pathologies.) That’s why there are batteries of empirical tests to rely on. But people can perform differently on tests depending on all sorts of stuff. If there was one interpretation of 'Mental Illness" then there would be ‘One’ approved method of dealing with it. (Like the Medical Model). But this is not the case.
This is a fascinating field of study, but it is all statistical, hypothetical, and struggling very hard to be as objective as possible. One of the most curious things about psychological treatment is that people report feeling better or being symptom-free while using techniques that have no scientific basis at all. And then the people believing in those techniques and using those techniques, bend over backward to make them ‘scientific.’ “Regression therapies” come to mind. Past life regression. Psychoanalytic regression. Just made up BS. Previously I mentioned temperaments. Meyer’s/ Briggs were a mother and daughter team, not even professionals: “Briggs was inspired to research personality type theory when she met Isabel’s future husband, Clarence Myers. She noticed he had a different way of seeing the world. This intrigued her enough to start a literature review to understand different temperaments.” The temperament types are based on Jungian theory (Another Theory of mental illness)
I have an opinion as to why these therapies work that is in line with J, Haley’s communication Model. (LOL - Another model of mental illness.) I like this one. While the person is talking about past lives or past experiences, they are disassociating from themselves. They are really talking about themselves in the here and now. It’s called "Disqualification’ in Haley’s language. This technique of getting a client to talk about themselves while not really talking about themselves can be done in many ways. Disqualification of time, (not here and now but last year or when you were a kid.) Disqualification of the message (I just had a strange thought run through my brain, what do you think of… or … I saw this on a bumper sticker the other day, what do you think of… I am not the one saying this to you.) Disqualification of place (Guided imagery, imagine you are in a forest… bla bla bla.) Disqualification of the person (you are getting sleepy, sleepy, and asleep. Imagine you are your father. What do you say to yourself? The person is not there talking to themselves.) There are more…
Most clinicians tend to be eclectic in their approach, applying techniques that are best used for certain presenting problems and client temperaments.
So, what are you calling “Mental Illness” OH! Don’t forget! The legal system has a definition of mental illness as well. This is where you get the word, “Insane.” 'Insane, ’ and ‘sanity’ are legal definitions. “Criminal insanity is understood as a mental defect or disease that makes it impossible for a [defendant to understand their actions, or to understand that their actions are wrong.” (defendant | Wex | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute)
Have fun Exploring - To have this discussion you need to indicate which paradigm you are using.
I absolutely love this shit!
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I can certainly see that you love this shit.
Interesting, I will certainly dive into some of this. Obviously I will be throwing in the towel on this debate. I won’t pretend to be able to argue this topic on such a level. I’m a maintenance mechanic, not a scholar. Honestly though, thanks for this criticism.
Coming from a point of having been a theist around three times longer than I have been atheist, this is the kind of stuff I want to explore more. Obviously my average theist upbringing has left me quite lacking in areas like this. I’m certainly trying to explore more of my mental toolbox.
Also very much not what I was trying to imply here that you don’t care. Obviously your enthusiasm implies quite the opposite. I was more trying to express my hesitation of ME trying to use your methodology. I’m certain that was my poor wording for any confusion.
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And this is one major reason I am here. I learn, a lot.
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Your a fucking scholar to me. You should see me around machines. I actually have an aptitude for ripping things apart and putting them back together. The problem is, I DON’T HAVE ANY FUCKING PATIENCE FOR IT. The fucking owner’s manual says loosen screw (A) and then lift the fucking whatever… Screw FUCKIING (A) NEVER THE FUCK COMES OUT. I end up stripping the shit out of it. Some asshole recommends drilling it out. I fuck that up and now I have three holes. Then I have to pay some asshole like you to tell me that I should have called you in the first place. You need to remove the lock pin from screw (A) before you unscrew it or you stip the entire insides. Now, that everything is all fucked up, you tell me you can fix it for half a million dollars or I can buy a new one. FUCK! I can’t get rid of the fucking thing because it was a gift and the person who gave it to me would notice that it was missing so I gotta pay you the fucking half million dollars. 10 minutes later everything is fixed and ready to go. What in the fuck did you do??? (Well, dipshit! I studied MECHANICS! You might want to try it before you go fucking around with shit next time!) Ha ha ha ha … All the way to the bank!