A question regarding god. Someone please help me make sense

Someone religious once said to me,

“So my question to you will be, what is the cause of what caused the Big Bang? What caused it to compress into a singularity? And how did it expand precisely that way that it led to the development of life? Just like you won’t believe that a boat CANNOT be made without a boatmaker, how can you believe that the universe, with its vastness, cannot be created by God?”

I tried my best not to debate this person, because they’re homophobic, and it would eventually lead to ad hominem attacks against my sexuality (what a loving parent you are), as most of our arguments lead to.

Look at the universe, and look at the size of the Earth compared to the universe. It looks smaller than even a grain of sand.

My answer, are you fucking saying that this “god” created a universe so vast just so “He” could burn gays? Not to mention men, women, and even children living a good life, not harming people, and either have a different interpretation of this god (either being one, many, or none) or just don’t want to dress or act a certain way that harms them. Fuck, 7 books in the bible feature God killing children.

Also, how the fuck do you even know this invisible and supposedly unfathomable ‘god’ that exists out of time and reality is male?

We don’t even need to discuss how fallacious it is to attribute undiscovered scientific phenomena to God. You just have to look at how absurd it is.

I mean, it’s like you creating an ant farm just so you could torture some ants trying to live their lives. Not only that, you torture them FOR ETERNITY. You call yourself good for torturing poor, insignificant animals?

How can you sleep comfortably knowing someone wants to torture your daughter while you either watch helplessly or ignore it?

I mean, even this person’s interpretation of hell is messed up, that there are supposedly “guards” in hell to keep sinners in and prevent them from going out. Wait, where is that in the bible again? Which holy book mentioned that?

I think you have it pretty well nailed.

We are always at a disadvantage with questions about the Big Bang because we don’t (and possibly can’t) know what caused or preceded it, and in fact, the question may not even make sense as time itself didn’t exist within the singularity, so there’s no “before”. Time is just a measure of difference or change and in a singularity as I understand it (and there are people who here who can speak to this better than I) there’s nothing moving toward or away from another thing so how would time even be relevant; it’s just an amorphous, undifferentiated “blob” so to speak.

I personally suspect that the speculation that the universe itself is eternal with no beginning is probably true – but I don’t know how we would conclusively verify that without the ability to step outside of the universe and observe it from great distances and over vast time periods. And it is that very vastness and difficulty of getting your mind around such fantastical scales in the midst of persistent unknowns that lends subjective credence to the idea that there must be a sky wizard brooding over it all. Or really as you’re experiencing it and as an online acquaintance elsewhere has aptly called it, a Space Hitler.

I would like to address this question.

  1. Just because we don’t understand something doesn’t mean that we should automatically invoke God. If we invoke God every time that we don’t understand something, then women would still be dying from infection after childbirth instead of doctors washing their hands.

  2. If a boat requires a boatmaker, then what made God? Why do we find it so difficult to accept that the Universe has always been here (in one form or another), yet find it so easy to accept that God has always existed? Can you guys not see this double-standard?

  3. In my mind, assuming that only God can explain what we don’t understand is very arrogant.

  4. We may never know all of the details and intricacies of the dynamics that created the Universe . . . and so what? Why is our sense of entitlement justified?

  5. It may be that God does exist. I have never claimed that God doesn’t exist . . . I just claim that there is no evidence of God’s existence.

  6. Questioning God’s existence (and organized religion in general) is a social and moral responsibility when we consider all of the horrible, evil, and destructive garbage that happens because of religion.

  1. It’s question begging, why would we assume it had a cause without proper evidence.

  2. It’s also an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy, to imply their belief gains credence, because it can’t be disproved or a contrary explanation or evidence demonstrated.

Question begging again, they’re confusing cause with effect. It expanded the way it did, and organic life developed, we don’t know if it could have developed any other way, and if it did what type of life if any could have emerged.

False equivalence fallacy, we have unequivocal objective evidence that boats are designed and created, we have none for any deity, or that they are even possible. It’s a common enough argument in religious apologetics, a variation on Paley’s watchmaker fallacy, it is poor reasoning, as it is fallacious and therefore irrational. Point and laugh at such arguments, it’s all they deserve.

Not surprising, that is also a fallacious form of argument, you’re arguing with a bigot who is too ignorant to understand how woefully poor their arguments are.

I wouldn’t bother, most bigots are utterly closed minded, point out the fallacies, ask him if he can demonstrate any objective evidence that any deity exists or is even possible, when he comes up dry point it out, and then ask him why he doesn’t believe in Thor or Apollo, then point out his bias, and explain this is the definition of closed minded.

Bigotry generally is messed up, but I fear hell as much as I fear that an angry unicorn might trample me to death, and for the same reason. I understand it’s not easy to avoid getting angry, but just point and laugh at how stupid and ignorant his argument are, he’s likely trolling you for a reaction, so turn the tables, it’d be easy on anyone that stupid, trust me.

We don’t know that it did. In any case, this is a claim about what happened before the “big bang”/cosmic inflation. When you get as far back as the Planck time (~5 × 10-44 seconds, or 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000005 seconds after “the big bang”) time and space sort of breaks down, and you cannot really talk about separating space and time. Thus, questions such as that cannot be answered simply or with any authority, because 1. we are then in the realms of quantum gravity, and that’s notoriously hard to theorise about, and 2. we have no way of empirically test physics at such high energy scales; the best we can do are to calculate implications as they would be seen today. Thus, the question cited above is in fact a red herring or a straw man.

That’s the fine tuning argument. The universe could have expanded into other configurations, creating other galaxies and stars and planets (i.e. not a planet and solar system identical to ours). But then we would not be here or there to observe it, and the question would be moot. Alternatively, other civilisations with completely different life forms could have developed and asked the same questions. But we would not (and could not) be there to observe it. The fact that we are here to ask that question is a result of our part of the universe being conducive to the kind of life we have here, and so it developed. We just happen to be here in this relatively cosy place in the universe that is conducive to life, and thus this kind of life happened.

In short: This place of the universe was not created for us, but our kind of life and our species happened because the conditions were just right, right here, at the right time. We are here despite the universe in general being quite hostile towards life, but this part of the solar system, at this part in our galaxy, is seemingly somewhat less hostile than other parts.

Edit: Also consider Douglas Adams’s puddle:

[I]magine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, ‘This is an interesting world I find myself in — an interesting hole I find myself in — fits me rather neatly, doesn’t it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!’

– Douglas Adams, The Salmon of Doubt: Hitchhiking the Galaxy One Last Time

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@NatashaAnnaBaker, I’m so sorry you’re experiencing bigotry. It’s unconscionable behavior.

I highly recommend getting and studying a book on logical fallacies. It will serve you well when confronted about your stance on things.

You’ve put this post in the Debate room where theists can respond to it and, perhaps, write derisive comments that lack appropriate sensitivity. Would you like me to move it over to the Atheist Hub room which only those who identify as atheist are able to post?

There is a comprehensive list HERE, if that helps.

@NatashaAnneBaker

There’s a simple answer to this pathetic apologetics you’ve been fed by this specimen.

Three words. Testable natural processes.

Are cosmological physicists looking for a cartoon magic man in the sky, as an answer to the question of how the observable universe came into being. NO. The answer is an emphatic and resounding NO.

What they are looking for, is a testable natural process that will provide a sufficient explanation (I placed ‘sufficient’ in italics, as a hint that I was using the word in its mathematical sense - more in a moment).

Indeed, testable natural processes are what scientists have been searching for, ever since modern science was launched during the Enlightenment. Scientists have been looking for entities and interactions that they can test via experiment where possible, and, failing that, can find physical evidence for. In this endeavour, scientists have been rampantly successful, to the point where only swivel-eyed fundamentalists deny said success, and try to pretend that the testable natural processes in question don’t exist.

Now, with respect to the origin of the observable universe (emphasis deliberate), cosmological physicists have postulated a number of ideas that don’t involve a cartoon magic man from a ridiculous Bronze Age mythology. Indeed, I’ve devoted numerous column inches to this topic, and this detailed exposition on braneworld cosmology and its ramifications is one I recommend you persevere with (ignoring the puerile distractions that polluted that thread after I launched it of course).

At this point, it’s important to emphasise a salient fact. While we do not possess the means to test directly the braneworld model proposed by Paul Steinhardt and Neil Turok in their two scientific papers on the subject, they provided us with the next best thing. Namely, they demonstrated that their mechanism would leave behind it, a signature of its occurrence in our observable universe, that we could search for and examine. In short, their model includes a testable prediction involving well-defined constraints upon the behaviour of the system. This is a feature you will never find in “Magic Man did it” apologetics.

I cannot emphasise enough how this distances cosmological physics from religious apologetics. While the theorists are several steps ahead of the experimentalists, some of the theorists have provided the experimentalists with the means to catch up, and actually perform tests of the theorists’ ideas. Steinhart and Turok provided just such an opening with their braneworld collision model.

That signature I mentioned above works as follows. Every time a source of wave energy exists (light bulbs and radio transmitters being two examples), there exists the possibility that the source can produce more than one wavelength at a time (light bulbs definitely fall into this category). When we have such a source, we can measure the quantity of each wavelength that is being produced by that source, and plot the data on a graph. That graph is known as the power spectrum for the source of wave energy. In the case of light bulbs, tungsten filament bulbs have a power spectrum that is skewed toward long wavelengths - the red end of the spectrum. Advanced LED lights have a more even distribution of wavelengths, and a flatter power spectrum curve.

Steinhardt and Turok’s wave energy doesn’t consist of light, however. It consists of gravitational waves, namely ripples in the fabric of spacetime that are produced whenever high energy events take place, such as neutron star mergers or black hole collisions. Their model predicts that the braneworld collision that launched our universe into existence, generated a flurry of gravitational waves resounding through space-time during the launch process, and that, more importantly, those gravitational waves had a very specific form of power spectrum - one biased toward short wavelengths.

Once this was announced in their papers, other scientists immediately set about working out how to build working gravitational wave detectors, expressly so that they could test this idea. Now, a few such instruments exist.

We have, of course, some way to go first. We have to learn how to tell those early, primordial gravitational waves apart from more recently produced ones. One method I can think of, is that more recent ones originate from very specific locations in space, and give away that location when they arrive here and set off Earth based gravitational wave detectors. Primordial gravitational waves, on the other hand, are expected to be omnidirectional, like the cosmic microwave background, and exhibit no directional preference. But I’m jumping the gun a little here.

The point is, we have a handle on how to tell whether or not Steinhardt and Turok’s ideas are right. We can perform an experimental test in this vein. Moreover, as far as I’m aware from the literature, Steinhardt and Turok’s braneworld collision model is the only one that produces gravitational waves of this sort, and therefore, a successful detection of that power spectrum is, as far as I’m aware at least, conclusive. Those two physicists walk away with a Nobel Prize, the moment this is announced.

Now, I mentioned above that the word “sufficient” has a specific meaning in mathematics. A necessary condition is one that has to be fulfilled, in order for specific subsequent ideas to be true, but does not guarantee that those ideas will be true. A sufficient condition is one that, if true, guarantees that the subsequent ideas will be true. In the context of this physics, the presence of the predicted gravitational wave power spectrum is a sufficient condition for the veracity of Steinhardt & Turok’s model. As I said above, they are a shoe-in for the Nobel Prize if that result is detected.

Of course, their ideas could fail at this hurdle. But even if they do, we’ve still learned something that we wouldn’t have learned, if we’d simply shrugged our shoulders and been satisfied with “Magic Man did it”. And that is a key concept that the mythology fanboys don’t want you to learn, namely that in the realm of science, even the failures are informative. They tell us it’s time to move on and try something else, and keep going until we hit the jackpot. Which is what Peter Higgs did for 40 years, until the Higgs Boson was finally found at CERN.

Yes, this pursuit could take centuries or even millennia to complete. But it’s far better to persevere with that effort, than to let mythology fanboy ignorance act as a drag anchor on progress, and be satisfied with glib assertions about a mythological magic man in the sky.

Hope this helps.

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@NatashaAnnaBaker - the universe and the world are wonderous. It should not occur to you that science might make it less wonderous or that God might make it more wonderous.

A beautiful day contains all the mystery it needs. As does a horrible, rainy day for that matter. What we as humans have to be open or receptive to is that wonder.

As a failed scientist, I’ve seen the wonder of the world reduced to equations and formulas. As a non-believer in the Abrahamic God I consider it an insult on the face of reality to ascribe this cosmos, in all of its vastness, to a one omnipotent being.

We are the observers. We should be held as the center of this universe. For we experience it most fully. We experience a beautiful summer day to the fullest and most wonderous extent possible. And the same for a dark Autumn day.

Nature, in itself, reveals itself to us. That is the wonder of nature. Not for us to question its origin, but to appreciate its presence unto our consciousness.

Ask your self, “when was the last time I felt the luminous glow of a sunny summer day enriching my body and soul?” “When was the last time I felt the ominous darkness of Fall lift my spirit into another plane of feeling”.

God doesn’t matter and science doesn’t matter when it comes to experience. What really matters is a return to child like innocence and an ability to release our crown chakra from the bonds that hold onto Amrit. Amrit is either ignorance or bliss. It resides in the crown chakra. It delineates the limit to which we can experience our environment. The crown chakra is “the Om” - the ultimate reality - which is sat, chit, and Ananda - reality, truth, and bliss.

Cultivate an understanding of your crown chakra and return to the child like ignorance which once allowed you to follow the ebb and flow of the clouds and the sky.

Fuck your religious counter parts. Fuck them in the fucking fuck hole. They are delirious and ignorant and can only pigeon hole reality according to dogmas formulated by goat herder societies some 3000 years ago - at best.

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False equivalence fallacy, one of those exists as an objective fact, the other has only been demonstrated to exist in the human imagination.

It might as well be ascribed to mischievous Goblin, I am less insulted by the claim than dubious. It’s when people start demanding other people live according what they claim the mischievous Goblin wants, I start to become irked.

I’d agree that letting oneself be seduced by notions of the numinous, are unnecessary in order to be awed by nature, nor is it necessary to imagine anything beyond objective reality.

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Says the guy talking about chakras and Amrit. :wink:

Apart from those specifics however I agree with you and Sheldon both – one can find transcendence without resorting to either religion or science. And meaning, and purpose. For me, none of that has been so compelling that I would have chosen this life, but they are more than sufficient, so far, to keep me going in the midst of … whatever THIS is here in the US, at least.