A poser for thiests

Can there be good without evil?

If NO, then there is a law above or beyond the powers of god

If god invented the law himself then he chose to allow evil

If you CAN have good without evil, then god chose to have both good and evil, therefore allowing evil

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Is the “Good” and “Evil” you describe a scientific definition or an ethical definition ?

Evil being actual pain, suffering, greed, etc and good being peace kindness and harmony. In terms of general life and existence objectively, so I would say scientific and measurable rather than just moral opinion

Hi Adam. Which god are you talking about?

So Good and Evil are quantifiable and can be measured and categorized ?

Hi, Good question, abrahamic god

Evil- causing extreme harm and stress to someone for no good reason…

Good - an act of kindness that betters someones life

Not going to engage in wordplay or semantics im sorry but theres a basic level which is very simple

People are not going to agree on what is good and evil.


Good and evil are subjective ideas, they don’t exist in reality or in any objective way, it is only how we subjectively perceive actions.

I’m not sure why any deity need be invokes at all, we can understand the subjective notions of good and evil without it.

There is no scientific definition of good and evil, since they are subjective concepts.

Again it is a subjective opinion that these represent good or evil.

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Then you are saying good and evil dont exist. A diety need not be invoked, I am pointing out a logical flaw in the concept of the abrahamic god

They exist only as subjective ideas.

I think Epicurus summed up the position you are trying to argue very well:

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

Epicurus lived hundreds of years before Jesus is claimed to have existed.


But epicurus used the term evil, which I thought we established is only subjective?

It is subjective, Epicurus was addressing notions of deity that were claimed to be omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent, and the innate contradiction it infers.

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What if I were to use the christian standard of good and evil? I.e good would be love thy neighbour, evil would be to murder someone unjustly. Surely the contradiction I put forward applies in this case?

Theirs is subjective as well. You could make object standards for good and evil; but they would be laughable. You’d be hard pressed to get anyone to follow them without force.

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I do understand that, maybe my argument should just be the old “why would a god allow people to suffer” or “god created everything, therefore he is responsible and shouldnt punish people”

That’s a bit better. I would suggest, however, that you always specify the god when saying this. Or, ask the theist with whom you are debating to define theirs. Then ask them a ton of questions…is your god all powerful, is your god all knowing, etc.

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Good and Evil are not a true dichotomy. So the response is yes. Each is its own proposition. 'Good exists." and “Evil Exists.” I personally believe in neither. I find some things good as they are pleasing to me. I find other things to be unfortunate, and problem causing. These things we deal with as best we can.

The dichotomy is good, and not good, or, evil and not evil. That which is not evil is not necessarily good, That which is not good, is not necessarily evil. You have created a ‘Black and White’ foundation for a fallacious position.

This is a simple apologetic called, ‘The Problem of Evil,’ AKA: (Theodicy). The problem of evil is the question of how to reconcile the existence of evil and suffering with an omnipotent, omnibenevolent and omniscient God? It has done nothing to sway theists as, after 2000 years, (Actually longer as this argument seems to have first appeared with Epicurious, 341–270 BC. Yep, there were atheists way back then.)

What Law? Also, Evil, as you are using it, is not well-defined. As I previously stated, I do not believe in anything called Evil. To me the word simply means something I find very offensive. So, I have no idea what this “Evil” is you speak of and equally not idea what you mean by “Law.” Are you referencing the 613 Laws that the Jews sometimes follow?

I have already shown you that this is a possibility. You have created a false dichotomy. You must demonstrate what good is and how it exists. You must also demonstrate what evil is and how it exists. Your Black and White logic has created an apologetic that is no more significant or useful than any apologetic created by the theists. Theodicy is not a very good argument against God.

Theists counter with:
Your mind is limited and God knows all. He moves in mysterious ways that can not be understood by the human mind. (The most popular position but not the only argument.)

So, while your comments are appreciated, and I would encourage you to post again, keep in mind that the forum is loaded with atheists who have done the research and understand the arguments. While the argument from Evil has its place, as evidence for the non-existence of god, it fails. The god of the Old Testament was not a nice guy. But any decision God makes is beyond our ability to comprehend.

Help yourself to a cookie and go back to the chalk board.


Oh, reeeeeeeeallllly? Care to debate? :joy: :joy: :joy:

I think worshipping Satan and sacrificing virgins is “objectively” evil. Even to a Satanist. I don’t think they would do it if they believed otherwise.