A Great way to Confuse Theists

Debate Room
1

A great way to confuse theists and get them to Think…

Which is to say:

. If God doesn’t need a reason to exit…

. Then the Universe doesn’t need a reason to exit…

. If the Universe needs a reason to exit…

. Then God needs a reason to exit…

They are both unexplainable entities…

You would imagine that it’s easier for the universe to emerge out of nothing compared to god.

Because he is a more complex creature… He is basically a person…

Can you Imagine a person sitting in darkness or anywhere else for eternity without going insane…

For those of you theists who will say that the universe is complex too…

The universe began simple with the most elemental subatomic particles like quarks then hydrogen then more complex stuff… You all know about the story of the Big Bang…

These particles followed the laws of the universe until they formed stars and planets…

And then the laws of the universe with the help of the laws of biology created human beings with brains…

where as god existed from the beginning with his full being…

How is that?..

2

That sounds kind of religious.

3

I’m refering to emergent behavior…

4

This would most likely confuse a theist.

These Laws are descriptors by humans. A way for us to communicate facts to one another - observed, tested…

However… Laws don’t just get help and create humans (hahaha - most with brains :brain:)…

Actually, there is a process involved - a lengthy one that has resulted in a diverse universe - some of which we can very accurately describe and other areas in which we are discovering and learning.

Like a new molecule on Titan!

image
image750×1334 204 KB

5

I know this. I was just trying to write in simple man language…

6

Well… don’t make it too simple - this is a backbone for theist beliefs.

Also you Capitalize words that have no reason to have a “capital”… it is distracting and gives the impression that you may not know what you are talking about if you can’t “get” the basics of English (in writing).

7

HUH!!! You have to be confused to utter such nonsense…

All of this to simply point to a “Special Pleading Fallacy?”

Holy creatures defy all logic by existing?? Both the universe and God exist? Someone is confused but I am not exactly sure it is the theists. You just asserted God is holy and exists. How is that going to confuse a theist?

HUH? How so? God, as far as I know, is closer to nothing than the universe. How do you get from something, the universe, which we know exists, to nothing? Turn something into nothing? On the other hand. How do you shift nothing, a “god concept” into nothing… well… was it ever anything in the first place? Can you demonstrate the somethinness of a God? What demonstrable evidence do you have that a God is somethng? What demonstrable evidence do you have that "nothing’ is capable of existing? Please share/

Have no idea at all who or what is a “person basically.” More inane confusion in your post.

Okay, some theists do make this argument. The universe is too complex not to be designed. “The argument from complexity.” A fallacy. “Simplicity is a product of design, not complexity.” But lets see where you go with this…

This is basically wrong. The “Laws” of the universe were also created in the “Big Bang.” Our “Laws of Physics” did not apply to the singularity beyond Planck time. Our Laws of Physics apply to our current state of existence. The Laws are descriptive and not prescriptive. The Laws are what we observe the universe doing. The universe does not “follow” the laws. We observe consistencies and when we can use these consistencies over time to make predictions, we call them laws. There are many instances in which the “Laws of Physics” do not work.

Not confusing to any theist at all. Your post is a complete fail. Any theist worth his salt would simply assert God put everything into motion. You have already asserted “God, like the universe, is a holy creature.”

This is what happens when Atheists begin posting assertions about magical beings like Gods and Spirits. You end up sounding as idiotic as the theists.

8

I suspect we already have a confused theist in here. He just doesn’t know it.

1 Like
9

Looks like we have a theist in disguise…

You are deliberately misunderstanding my points. To make it impossible for me to respond to you without making a 4 page essay…

1 Like
10

Hahahaha

COG - there you go again making it “impossible” for people to do shit!!!

Lol :joy:. ‘DATS MY :monkey:

1 Like
11

No one is deliberately misunderstanding anything. You are a shit writer. It is the writer’s responsibility to communicate clearly and not the reader’s responsibility to try and figure out what in the hell the writer is talking about. You don’t need a 4 page essay. What you need is an ounce of honesty.

"How about saying, "Thanks for the post. I am an atheist and I don’t believe in God or gods. Obviously I did not express myself clearly. "

There you go - 26 short little words and your post is done for you.

Your’re welcome!

1 Like
12

@Naytheist

Welcome to AR from South Australia.

I was wondering in which country you live? I ask because in making this thread you seem to be under a mistaken impression. IE that I specifically, or atheists generally here have an interest in confusing theists. Why on earth would I want to do that? To feel superior? I have no such need.

My question to a theist is always the same; please demonstrate the existence of your god. So far no one has managed to do that in recorded history.[as far as I’m aware.]

I’m also interested in the history of the Abrahamic faiths. (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) So sometimes have discussions with apologists who come here. There are also members here who enjoy using apologists as chew toys. They seldom have any trouble getting apologists confused.

Currently there’s a nice Muslim chap who insists on quoting the Quran in support of his arguments ,as if it matters to us.

On reading your post I came away with the impression it is you who are confused. But then I’m not a trained scientist as I assume you are. I could be quite wrong

2 Likes
13

NaytheistAtheist

Welcome to the site… And if you think this is one of those places where you just get to insult theists, sling shit without warrant, and everyone is going to pat you on the back, it just ain’t gonna happen.

Your posts should be a bit more carefully thought out, a whole lot less random, and you might want to wait for a theist to actually say something stupid prior to strawmaning his/her position. Hang around for a bit and that is sure to happen.

1 Like
14

This conversation went in a different direction than I had anticipated. But maybe I’ll mention the situation and question I had thought of which I think might challenge a theist to ponder:
While visiting my folks and my brother and his gal friend, my brother had told us about a trip he and she had taken. Without details, I’ll just say they they had run into trouble in the mountains in either Wyoming or Montana.
He said they had prayed for god to keep them from getting stranded in a snow storm, and god came through for them.
My parents were with us, dining in a restaurant, so I didn’t feel like starting a heated discussion or debate, but I had thought the following:
Statistics show that up to 150,000 people around the world die each day, up to 15,000 are innocent children. God and jesus allow this to happen when he/they have the power to help them, even when I’m sure many of them and their families, being christians, prayed for a different result than death.
I thought of citing the above and then asking my brother, “If your god didn’t answer their prayers, or at least didn’t answer them in a favorable way, what makes you think your god listened to you and bailed you out of your situation, which we can agree was less urgent than all those who had died?”
I can guess that he would have rationalized that the proof is that they had survived their situation safely, and they thanked god for it (not to mention that god works in mysterious ways and we can’t know god and his plan).
Knowing both of our attitudes, I know the argument would escalate. So I wouldn’t start this debate with someone who already believes his god had helped him.
I’ll ask if anyone thinks the question might be worth a shot with someone who says they’re praying or will pray for something that hasn’t occurred yet?

1 Like
15

As well . . .

If “God” is perfect, AND since “God” , (we are told by many a theistic person), always does things in accordance with his nature, then “God” will not do anything which would increase imperfection. But we’re told that the universe is not perfect, (eg. there’s supposedly “sin” here). So somehow, “God” did not make the universe, or else is it that “God” isn’t always perfect, and therefore not always in accord with his so-called “nature”???

If “God” is omniscient, then “God” has knowledge of what it’s like to experience things such love, hate, pleasure, boredom or whatever, without having to have experiences like we humans do. So "God’ had no need to “create” a universe, because “he” already had full and precise possession of what such ‘things’, (as love, hate etc.), are like, and had such knowledge of the universe, without “creating” it. And again, “God” would have known about all the imperfections of the potential universe, yet supposedly “created” it imperfect anyway. “God” did not have to create a universe with The Holocaust in it, because “he” already knew precisely how it would be, and how it would feel, from all points of view.

Of course the theist can always say: ‘God moves in mysterious ways’. Bu that just seems to be a cryptic way of saying: ’ “God” doesn’t make sense to us, so we oughtn’t to try to make sense of “it / him” '. Whatever the case, I see no reason why the so-called “God” could not have made a perfect universe, including the feature of free will for all. He could have simply programmed it so that everyone freely chooses to do “his” will, just like it apparently happens up in “heaven”

Another alternative which is quite coherent with all of reality, is that perhaps there is no god, no sin and no heaven. Perhaps??? And if that is the case, the universe still isn’t perfect. In what way the universe is imperfect may depend on how you look, to find perfection versus imperfection.

Cheers,
Mutorc

1 Like
16

HucksterAtheist

Welcome to AR. Any theist willing to have a real discussion is welcome to do so. They will be treated with respect and the members on the site will do the best they can to respond reasonably and accurately to questions.

Bullshit is pretty much stomped on and that happens whether it comes from Atheists or Theists. If you are going to bash an argument a theist makes, at least have your ducks in a row first.

OKAY, let’s see what you have to say now:
Regarding the question of deaths and prayer… There is a time and place for everything. How confrontational do you want to be with your parents at a restaurant?

Would I say something like that? YES! But I don’t see myself doing it at a restaurant over dinner. I might just suggest we change the topic before I have to bring up the efficacy of prayer studies. I can hear myself asking, “How many people do you imagine died while God was saving you?” Still, timing is everything. To confront or not to confront is always your choice. I am not you.

17

Wow! What a long winded way to paraphrase Epicurus.

"Epicurus’s old questions are yet unanswered. Is he willing to prevent evil, but not able? then is he impotent. Is he able, but not willing? then is he malevolent. Is he both able and willing? whence then is evil?

1 Like
18

Huckster, did they huddle together during the snowstorm or stand out in the open and standing exposed, while praying? Because if they huddled together and tried to stay sheltered, they saved themselves. If they will not accept this, ask them to repeat the experience standing out in the wind, and pray like stink.

Question: how many people get stranded overnight and survive, versus those who do not?

IMO prayer falls into the category of counting the hits and ignoring the misses. How many prayers does a theist make a day, and how many are answered?

And if they counter “god moves in mysterious ways”, then there is no way to determine if a god was in action because any outcome is random. And if a god does exist, it’s one mean spirited SOB, not the loving and caring god as promoted.

19

Indeed.

–and what percentage of prayers are essentially ‘begging letters’, sublimely shallow and selfish?

20

“How many people do you imagine died while God was saving you?”
Now that’s another good, sharp question to throw at a theist. I’ll keep it in mind. But yes, I’ve done a little research and thought of how I might ask questions and respond during a debate.
However, other than the one theist I debated with, at the time I actually declared my lack of beliefs to anyone, I haven’t gotten into a debate on the subject. I’ve tried to avoid confrontation, especially with my family. With chwisthtianity ‘inundating’ the region I live (upper Midwest of the U.S.), I’ve only ‘come out’ to a few open-minded friends.
After about 10 years of this state of ‘keeping low’ about my beliefs, I started seeking places online to express myself and correspond with like-minded folks. As I’ve mentioned on another post, thank science and technology (not god) for the internet.
To confront or not to confront with my family and friends is a toughy. I’m thinking some day my family ought to know, but I haven’t ‘found’ the right time. Though I realize there is no right time except within myself. That’s one of my internal debates I’ll want to resolve some day.
BTW, it’s been a interesting and enlightening experience on AR. Thanks to all who come here and express their thoughts.
To all, carry on …

1 Like