Why atheists don't believe in God?

Mr. Guthrie,

I am surprised you returned. I was wrong about that. Although your posting seems to be a drive-by post.

Nevertheless, I wanted to comment on something:

First, evolution talks about animals, plant, etc., not religion. It was never going to prove or disprove the existence of a god.

But disproving a god is much like disproving Bigfoot, or unicorns, or dragons. I use the phrase “Can’t prove a negative” to describe the process. I can only point to the severe lack of evidence.

And an open question for the community: Is “Can’t prove a negative” the right way to say this?

2 Likes

What part of WE DON’T HAVE TO DISPROVE HIM, YOU HAVE TO PROVE THAT HE DOES EXIST don’t you understand? Atheism isn’t a claim that god/gods don’t exist, it’s just the statement that we don’t BELIEVE he exists.
That’s a huge difference.

1 Like

Well you can demonstrate a negative is true, all you would need is sufficient objective evidence, but what he has done here is present a logical fallacy, it’s called an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy. In logic nothing is proved because it can’t be disproved, conversely nor is it disproved because it cannot be proved of course.

When dealing with generic claims for a deity, they are usually unfalsifiable, and this is often when that fallacy is used. NB Not believing a claim, which is atheism, is not itself a claim that no deity exists, thus it (atheism) need demonstrate nothing, as @mr.macabre13 just stated.

So what criteria did you use to determine there is no Creator?

But you do realise philologically speaking language dictates something has to exist to deny it’s existence! So the burden is on the denier…

@Everton1234, what do you think atheism is?

Can you explain in detail how that tautology relates to the topic? Seems like you just dropped that out of left field.

Yeah, I don’t think so.

Does this apply to unicorns?

1 Like

When I was a very young child, I did strongly imagine and suspect that there was a monster under my bed. I eventually refused to admit it’s existence, though, as it was never seen or heard or smelled or touched. Ever.

So that bastard does exist after all?!

Well there goes my restful sleep, @Everton1234. Shit. Thanks a lot.

2 Likes

Mr. Guthrie was probably referring to the fact that there is no evidence to support a creator. So the criteria would be “Evidence”. If you’ve got some evidence, please let us know what it is and it will fill that hole in the universe.

Ah … Mmmmm … That’s not how that works.

The concept might exist, but the actual existence requires evidence. Unicorns, Harry Potter, Loch Ness monster come to mind as concepts that exist, but they don’t exist. There are holes in the universe for those things that would love to be filled with evidence.

I just explained precisely that? In logic nothing is disproved because it has not been proved.

However disbelief in the claim a deity exists (atheism) is not a contrary claim that no deity exists, though some atheists go further of course, and make such a claim, and yes as with all claims, this carries an epistemological burden of proof, though a lesser one I’d say than than theism, as that is the larger claim.

Do you know what unfalsifiable means?

The burden of proof applies to all claims, but disbelieving a claim, is not itself a contrary claim.

2 Likes

Agree 100%. Twenty characters.

2 Likes

And lo and behold, the newcomer jumps to unwarranted conclusions. How often have we seen this here before?

Those of us who paid attention in class, apply rigour to our thinking. None of us who treat the issues seriously, either assume or assert that there does not exist a “creator”, whatever form such an entity may take. That last bolded part was chosen with care, for reasons that shall become apparent in due course, but for now, let us concentrate upon the assertion that a god type entity of some sort exists.

Quite simply, the question of whether of not a god type entity in the most general sense exists, is an unanswered question. We know this, because if a proper, rigorous answer had been found at some point in the past, that answer would now be part of our mainstream body of knowledge, and no sensible person would be arguing about this. That such an answer has not materialised, means that this assertion us unsupported by evidence, and as a corollary, like every other unsupported assertion, can be safely discarded, with the proviso of course that we should be willing to change our minds, the moment we alight upon data informing us that this course of action is required.

The trouble is, mythology fanboys never apply rigour to their thinking. Instead, they think that their choice of cartoon magic man, from their choice of pre-scientific mythology, is the only viable option, and do so on the flimsy basis known as “my favourite mythology says so”. This is usually followed by the concoction of duplicitous ex recto apologetic fabrications, aimed at trying to twist observational data to conform to mythological assertions, regardless of how much said data destroys said mythological assertions.

Worse still, mythology fanboys treat uncritically as fact, the assertions of their favourite mythologies, even when said assertions are known not merely to be wrong, but fatuous and absurd. A hilarious example is provided by the assertion in Genesis, that genetics is purportedly controlled by coloured sticks, an assertion that was found to be risibly false by a 19th century monk, whole landmark scientific research not only taught us how genetics actually operates, but launched modern genetics as a properly constituted scientific discipline.

Indeed, that example also has lethal ramifications for the assertion that the cartoon magic man in question is purportedly “omniscient”, and purported possesses perfect foreknowledge of the future. Which fails dismally when one compares that mythological assertion about genetics, to what we actually learned about the subject once scientific enquiry was undertaken on a proper, diligent basis. Apparently the cartoon magic man in question was insufficiently “omnisicent”, to foresee the emergence of that 19th century monk and his diligent scientific experiments.

Examples such as this lead those of us who paid attention in class, to treat religious mythologies with proper suspicion. And, indeed, we come at this point to the genuine view that many of us here hold, namely that cartoon magic men from pre-scientific mythologies can be dismissed with little effort, on the basis that said entitles are constructed within the requisite mythologies to possess contradictory and absurd properties, even before we question the provenance of the mythologies on the basis of the demonstrable errors contained therein.

Furthermore, some of us have entertained ideas on this matter, that mythology fanboys are clearly incapable of even fantasising about, just as the original authors of the myuthologies in question were incapable of even fantasising about vast classes of entities and interactions subsequently alighted upon by scientists. As an example, after reviewing two peer reviewed scientific papers on the subject of cosmological physics, I posted this substantial thread involving multiple posts, explaining how the requisite work in cosmological physics has serious (and at times hilarious) ramifications for assertions about a “creator”. Before you jump to yet more unwarranted conclusions, read carefully the posts in question, including the parts where I cover in some detail that the scientific papers in question include a testable prediction, something completely absent from mythology fanboy apologetics.

So already, there’s a substantial body of prior art present on this forum, which you never bothered to search for, and whose existence remained unknown to you at the time of your post. But we’re used to seeing this absence of diligence on the part of mythology fanboys.

Moving on …

This is diametrically opposed to how proper discourse operates.

In the realm of proper discourse, whoever presents an assertion is required to support that assertion. If someone asserts that a fantastic magic entity exists that was purportedly responsible for fabricating the observable universe and its contents, it is that someone who is required to support that assertion. All the rest of us have to do, is sit back and wait for success or failure on the part of that someone to support that assertion - or indeed any other assertion presented. If that someone fails to support the assertion being presented, then said assertion is safely discardable.

The proper discoursive action, if one wishes to have an assertion treated as fact, is to support that assertion with genuine evidence. Without which, that assertion can be tossed into the bin without further ado. This is why rigorous human endeavours involve the business of testing assertions, to determine whether or not they are true or false. In the absence of said testing, every assertion presented that is bereft of said testing forever remains in the epistemological limbo known as “truth value unknown”, and is therefore useless as a means of establishing knowledge.

Once said testing has been conducted, however, two corollaries follow. An assertion found to be false can again be discarded, except for pedagogical purposes - namely, learning how we made mistakes in the past, and what steps need to be taken to avoid such errors in the future. An assertion found to be true is transformed into an evidentially supported postulate, and becomes a part of our mainstream body of knowledge.

Indeed, a direct rebuttal to your error is provided by the aphorism “it is the mark of an educated mind to entertain a thought without accepting it”, which indeed is the basis of every rigorous academic discipline. Now it so happens that this aphorism is mistaken attributed to Aristotle, and there exists a suitably succinct explanation (along with a direct quotation in the original Greek, of the requisite passage from the Nicomachean Ethics) covered here.

A relevant reply to that blog post is this one, from which we learn:

However, even if we take on board that error and learn from it, it still remains a fact, that in proper discourse, propositions only have a well-defined truth-value when they have been properly tested to determine said truth-value, which anyone familiar with the work of Willard Van Ormand Quine will recognise as the fundamental principle of applied logic. A principle mythology fanboys have a habit of ignoring (sometimes deliberately) when they peddle their vacuous and frequently duplicitous apologetics.

I think this should cover the relevant bases.

If God exists, then where does God come from? If God has always existed, then why not save a step and conclude that the Universe has always existed? Or, if we decide that God’s origin is an unanswerable question, then why not conclude that the question of what created the Universe is an unanswerable question?

If we believe that the complexity of the Universe requires a creator, then the creator must be much more complex . . . so what created the creator? Why assume the Universe must have a creator yet assume that God does not have a creator? This is a double standard.

1 Like

It should be “Why do theists believe in God?” Any god. There’s a bushel of them out there, and new ones pop up all the time. And they’re all equally ludicrous.

1 Like

No. Belief is allocated to the degree of evidence provided. No more no less. Science does not espouse truths. It takes all the information available and builds the best model it can. It fully admits that with new evidence the model can be changed. Science is not telling you what is true, it is telling you what is not backed by fact or evidence.

The core of science is ‘evidence’ not faith. The core of religion is ‘faith’ regardless of the evidence.

2 Likes

You capitalized “Faith”, so you mean some god or other. This automatically disrespects your premise as we don’t “all” do anything.

He came here to preach, his posts suggest he has little interest in honest debate. Take the post you responded to for example, here:

Read this carefully, and all he is saying is "no one has any “proof” of how our “existence came into being”, why does theism, or the lack of it, feature at all in that claim? It’s basically, “we don’t understand X”, well so what?

The he moves on to his false equivalence fallacy, here:

Religious faith has a very different definition to the primary definition of the word.

Faith
noun

  1. complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
  2. strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.

Note the first can be based on objective facts, and objective evidence, whereas the second need not be. He was asked countless times to demonstrate any objective evidence for any deity, or that a deity is even possible, and failed to offer any. So his irrational and dishonest claim, equating the first kind of faith, with his religious faith, is manifest.

FWIW, he never addressed his use of that fallacy, despite being asked to more than once.

The crazy and unnecessary use of random capital letters by religious apologists, is being taught in some apologist class somewhere, it has to be, as it simply happens too often for it to be a coincidence.

2 Likes

Oh look, it’s this garbage again.

Since it’s obvious that you never bothered to learn about this, scientists have published tens of thousands of peer reviewed scientific papers, documenting the ideas they’ve devised with respect to relevant questions, and in several cases, the ideas they have devised have been successfully tested experimentally. No “faith” needed in the case of those ideas, and furthermore, the ideas awaiting test were devised for sound, rigorous reasons, based upon what we already know in the realms of physics, chemistry and biology.

For example, we have:

[1] Cosmological physics: there are numerous models in circulation for the instantiation of the observable universe in its current form. A particular favourite of mine is the braneworld cosmology model produced by Paul Steinhardt and Neil Turok, which I favour because the two scientific papers describing that model include a testable prediction, centred upon the power spectrum of primordial gravitational waves. Which, incidentally, is why scientists laboured diligently to develop working gravitational wave detectors, precisely so that they could test that prediction, once the initial development and learning phase is complete. I cover this topic in some detail in this thread that I launched specifically for the purpose. Read it and learn something.

[2] Prebiotic chemistry: over 100,000 peer reviewed scientific papers from this discipline, document in exquisite detail the laboratory experiments establishing that every chemical reaction implicated in the origin of loife WORKS. The research in question has now moved on to successful experiments with synthetic model protocells. Furthermore, I was recently introduced to four peer reviewed scientific papers by a team of Japanese scientists, who established in their laboratory experiments that their RNA strands not only underwent self-replication, but generated a molecular ecosystem via Darwinian evolution. Again, I devoted a significant thread to this topic, and in my opening post therein, provided citations for 82 peer reviewed scientific papers relevant to the various sub-topics within prebiotic chemistry that have been the subject of research. Again, read that thread and learn something.

[3] Evolutionary biology: Over 1½ million peer reviewed scientific papers document in exquisite detail, the evidence for evolution. This includes successful direct experimental test and verification of evolutionary postulates, and replication of speciation events in the laboratory. Indeed, I’m aware of at least three direct experimental tests of evolution that can be performed in a high school laboratory. Even a cursory search of my output here on this forum, will reveal that I’ve presented, in detail, the contents of numerous peer reviewed scientific papers from the evolutionary biology literature to the audience here.

So, your assertion that scientists are purportedly clueless about relevant questions, is once again destroyed by recourse to the FACTS. As is your fatuous resurrection of the “faith” canard mythology fanboys keep masturbating over.

2 Likes