I am sorry for piper’s loss.
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No. I enjoy it. A bit of hyperbolic BS tells me everything I need to know about another person.
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May be more difficult than calculus for Cog to stop using hyperbole. Thankfully, I would never in a million years stoop so low as to use such exaggerated means of expression.
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and I a trillion years.
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Yes indeed…considering the incestuous relationships between anger and sarcasm, or self-aggrandizing and hyperbole, or tendencies to antagonize and abusive rhetoric, I can only shrink in trepidation at the thought of employing such behaviors…
Edit: take the high road
Thank you, this situation is probably the worst thing that can happen to expectant parents. Our daughter-in-law had to deliver their dead daughter just so they could see her for a brief moment before she was taken away from them forever.
It’s completely fucked up.
My wife and I were at their home watching the girls when our son had to tell them that their little sister was dead. It’s probably the worst moment in our lives as a family.
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Again, I’m really sorry. No family should have to go through that.
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I’ve told my wife that when I die she should just toss me in the back of her SUV and take me to the nearest landfill.
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When I die, I want my body donated to a medical school so that my corpse will serve a useful purpose in educating the next generation of doctors.
I have also toyed with the idea of being frozen cryogenically.
This isn’t so I could wake up in 1,000 years when science is able to fix my frozen corpse (although it would nice) but, rather, I believe that a library of frozen corpses from different times will allow future doctors to track emerging diseases.
As an example that supports this point, scientists were able to exhume the frozen corpses of Inuit victims of the 1918 flu epidemic from arctic permafrost, and cultivate a live sample of the horrific 1918 influenza.
While I question the wisdom of ressurecting an extinct virus that killed 80 million people in 18 months . . . they say that this helped them tweak vaccines to make them more efficient at protecting people.
By analogy, I think a large number of cryogenically preserved corpses will help future scientsts track how diseases evolve and change over time.
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I think much has been overlooked in this discussion. The psychosocial value(s) of ritual is not something to be dismissed casually. These have been a long time in the making.
I have participated in a number of funerals involving a variety of cultural influences. I stopped attending conventional funerals several years ago due to the, mostly Christian, religious attachments, as well as the obscenity of the profit-based funeral industry and the dismissive attitudes towards a celebratory approach. (A “celebration of life” is a newer alternative “ritual” often supplanting religious ones.)
Many appear to benefit from ritual, especially in the case(s) of those less
experienced in contemplative or introspective pursuits. Also individuals of “emotional susceptibility” may find more value as well.
For some, the psychological benefit of a collective “mourning” ritual seems to resemble the benefit from deliberate, personal, empathetic behavioral responses from a friend or companion, with an additive value of collective “community” support.
Ritual can be a real and directly observable demonstration of a coping mechanism as a response to a major emotional challenge. Coping is clearly an issue of paramount importance and dismissing ritual’s value is ignoring that importance.
Something I have directly observed, is that the practice of ritual can have the effect of instilling a sense of mutual respect in the participants.
I think it might be argued that showing respect for a deceased family or societal member, might serve to illustrate a mutual level of consideration which could, arguably, enhance one’s sense of well-being in those involved.
Lastly, I have experienced a “collective value” in the sharing of memories and experiences, as might be shared during a wake or “visitation”. Since those are all that remain of the “departed”, a respectful replaying may serve as a deeply personal acknowledgment of the importance of interpersonal relationships and the public demonstration of such.
People grieve over loss from death and need options for expressing their grief.
I have attended a variety of events such as jam sessions, Cherokee stomp dances and ceremonials, an Irish wake, and a few small “celebrations of life” along with many conventional funerals starting with my father’s when I was six. Without exception all of these events attempted to recognize the significance and dignity of a life now gone, although the Christian funerals often became recruiting opportunities for “saving sinners”.
I am hopeful that more people will consider the alternatives to funerals as well as the opportunities for mental health support when needed.
None of this for my wife or me. I will preserve the dignity of our relationship by respecting her preferences as she will for me.
Should funerals be banned? Probably not, but alternatives certainly deserve promotion.
Edit “Elvis has left the building”
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Our topic is now PSYCHOLOGICAL VALUES OF RITUAL: Not exactly a logical shift from the OP but at least we are on some form of reasonable ground… let’s see what’s next. I don’t think Psychologica Ritual was previously discussed.
Who would benefit from the Psychological Ritual of a Funeral? A Christian funeral? I am just chewing on this for a bit.
It seems to me that one would need a presupposition of Christian faith for a Christian ritual to have meaning. The same would be true of Buddhists, Hindus, Etc.
I have heard of the ‘Celebration of Life’ funerals. Certainly preferable. IMO
And interestingly my question remains… for whom? Have these rituals not been brainwashed into us? Im not disagreeing - I am trying to look at the relationship between the ritual and the indoctrinated belief system.
I thought of an example. Atheist Experience, Matt is talking to a lady who always thought she would see her dead sister in heaven. Here it is 20 or 40 years later and Matt Challenges her on her idea of heaven. (You know how Matt can be.) The woman has a breakdown. ‘But I always though I would see my dead sister in Heaven.’ Did the ritual help or just hide reality?
Years later she is dealing with that which she never dealt with before. I guess the message of the ritual is important. Christianity is not a ‘letting go’ or saying ‘goodbye.’ it is a moving on to the next palce? Is that valuable. I am not discounting anything you said. I am just exploring. I gotta go teach a class.
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A well reasoned and written post, thank you. I think that sentence sums my feelings up to be honest. The hyperbole in the title is a hook you understand, to grab the attention. There are already some alternatives to traditional funerals in the UK, they seems to be gaining some traction as well.
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And who said we get no work done around here!
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A valid question, no doubt. I can only speak confidently from my personal experiences. The first funeral I attended (at six) was my father’s and I was at a clearly Christian indoctrinated state.
I had been told my daddy had gone to live with the angels and I believed it.
Over the years I attended several more and was becoming alienated from the Baptists, starting at about twelve. That’s when the nonsense started becoming apparent to me.
I was required to attend funerals of family members like my grandmother, two aunts, etc…
It was strange to share the sadness of the death and be expected to share the nonsense of god’s plan for salvation and eternal life as well.
Over the next fifty plus years I gradually withdrew from conventional funerals, although I would attend a visitation or small remembrance gathering, etc.
I later in life became involved in a Cherokee community and served as a fire keeper at a ceremonial grounds in Oklahoma for several years. This gave me an inside yet somewhat detached perspective of the acculturation and indoctrination elements of belief. The obvious differences between cultures as well as the differences in myths and rituals motivated me to examine where those things overlapped the similarities.
The Cherokee culture was irreparably altered by acculturation and indoctrination as a result of ethnocentricity. Many were converted to Christianity and abandoned their old beliefs.
Much was done willingly in the hopes that adopting white culture and religion would save them from the inevitable. It did not.
Now, many hold beliefs from both cultures.
The similarities and commonalities between culturally disparate rituals I have observed, has led me to consider and contemplate the underlying functionalities of ritual and myth.
Since the Cherokee and Creek beliefs were so much closer to the ancient, I could not help but see an unvarnished truth about respect, dignity, community, and really a basic human need for emotional equilibrium and comfort. Frankly, respect and dignity appears to be a more relevant element in Cherokee ritual, including the respect afforded those of differing beliefs. I never saw anyone made to feel unwelcome due to differences in beliefs or culture among the more traditional members.
Although indoctrination has certainly been a prominent feature of various rituals I have participated in, I am not convinced that the usefulness of ritual cannot be achieved without
religious or other indoctrination. An honest open-eyed approach to a collective respectful acknowledgement of a person’s life could, arguably, provide an opportunity for similar benefits without the religious nonsense and guilt/fear attachments. I think it is incumbent upon those of us able to do so, to examine, discuss, explore and encourage ways of accomplishing such.
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Thanks
Yes of course. However, the elements we have been mulling over may be something we would want to individually and voluntarily eliminate or “ban” for the sake of the collective mental health.
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Hahaha you reminded me of a Ricky Gervais movie “The Invention of Lying”…good stuff.
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I thought about this throughout the day… my conclusion.
Ritualistic funerals - The unsubstantiated bullshit, are in fact cathartic as long as you die before someone challenges your ideas. At the point your ideas are sufficiently challenged, you end up dealing with the emotions of death (altered perceptions) all over again. So I am both agreeing and disagreeing with you at the same time. I agree the myths are rituals are functional. To a degree.
What would it look like? I imagine it would be the simple acceptance of ‘When your dead, your dead.’ But what would that look like? People just stepping over dead bodies on the street. Uncle dies at the dinner table, and we just place him on the door step for the cleanup crew to take him away in the night.
There is something about us and our relationship with death that seems to require some sort of grieving process. It makes us human. I like the idea of respect, I like the idea of celebration of life, at the same time, at the end of it all, someone is just dead.
But honest and open-eyed is not how we say goodbye to the dead. Instead, they have a dishonest affirmation of what a wonderful person they were. The biggest shithead on the planet is going to have a glowing eulogy.
My own idea:
I have the idea that it is not the loss of the person that we mourn. Instead, it is the loss of the relationship. My father dies, and I am no longer a son. That relationship dies (significantly changes) forever. So the rituals allow us to bury a part of ourselves. They allow us to deal with a major social, and psychological change in ourselves. Funerals are for the living.
I don’t think that changes anything you have said, but rather, expands the goal of ritualistic funeral behavior. Anyway, interesting conversation. I have a sense that we say goodbye to bits of ourselves when significant others die, and that is where a lot of the pain of loss resides.
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Great movie. I’ve probably watched it 3 times now.