I don’t know about you but religion is a trap and if you have one, you fell for it.
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The Buddha taught suffering and the end of suffering. He made no mention of a Creator God for the sake of salvation. He preached salvation from suffering through one’s own wisdom and effort.
Being trapped into methods of minimizing the intellect is the latest thing, though.
Doing the Bible. Making Tiktoks while at work. Commenting on the weather. Scientology. Listening to entertainment stars talk about real life stuff.
Leaning on understanding - such a nuisance.
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Oooohhh, I like that statement. It is a valid summation of many things that hamper human development.
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So? You wouldn’t jump off of a bridge if all of your other friends did it would you?
…(timidly raising hand in back of room)… I, uh… (Oh, dear.)… I, uh, have literally actually done that before.
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I can’t recall if I ever jumped off a bridge, but if it was a bunch of us, I would have been the first one to go. Done a lot of stupid shit, was the first to charge into the maw of stupid stuff.
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Uh…wait, was that you egging me on to jump, which resulted in my nearly drowning? (It took very little to talk me into doing stupid shit, probably related to the stupid shit I was taught to believe)
Well, guess I should have clarified. It wasn’t a group of friends I was with. (Although, I have certainly done my share of “genius” stunts with friends.) In this particular incident, though, it was more of a “saving face” situation. While taking a language course in Puerto Rico (compliments of my Uncle Sam), the assistant instructor would take me and the other guy in the class out to different local recreation areas on weekends. Locations not on the tourists maps. Up in the mountains there was a local swimming pool facility set up next to the river run-off rapids, with steps leading down to the river. One of our favorite spots. Up the road from there was a bridge crossing over the river, and the instructor kept telling us the locals hang out there all the time and jump off the bridge. Well, hell! Let’s go! After all, we were a couple of billy-bad-ass Army Airborne guys in a Special Forces unit! We jump out of planes all the time! What’s the big deal about jumping off a bridge, right? So, the instructor agreed to take us there. Upon arrival, however, we looked over the side of the bridge and started to wonder. “Uh, gee, this is higher than we expected. And, uh, how deep is the water down there? We can see the bottom.” (Crystal clear mountain water.) Instructor: “Not sure how deep the water is, but people jump in all the time. But just make sure you land in that one particular spot down there.” (Oh, great! Thanks. That really helped! 
)
So he and I are assessing the situation and looking at each other trying to decide who will chicken out first. Meanwhile, from around one end of the bridge comes two little boys running toward us. One was maybe 8, and the other probably 10. Since we were standing at the “launch area”, the two kids practically pushed us aside to get to the guardrail. The youngest boy climbed over the rail, stood on the paved overhang, looked to make sure the LZ was clear, and hurled himself off without hesitation. The other boy immediately climbed up on TOP of the guardrail, looked just long enough to make sure the younger boy was clear, and then off he went! (Wellllllll shit. 
) We look at each other, then look over at the instructor who is trying her best to hide a smirk and not bust out laughing. Well, our fate was sealed. Therefore, since I was the “senior” of the two of us, up on the guardrail I went. Lead by example, right? (Yes, on TOP of the guardrail.) Look for the spot where the two boys landed. LZ clear. Off we goooooo!.. SPLASH!.. Feet hit river bottom, quickly followed by my bottom hitting river bottom. (Only lightly, though, thankfully. Water was maaaaybe 9 or 10 feet deep.) Quickly make my way back to the surface and give my buddy a thumbs-up. I tell him to prepare to hit the bottom, then I cleared the LZ. After only the slightest hesitation, off he went. Came up fine. Went off several more times and had an absolute blast with the locals the rest of the day. I think we earned their respect. 
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Does a Buddhist suuffer? If not, how could he possibly have empathy or consider himself human. A rock does not suffer. What do you imagine is actually meant by, ‘the end of suffering?’ Salvation from suffering is throgh wisdom and effort but somehow effort is effotless and not a degree of suffering? All my effort is a degree of self induced suffering. Ratty Ratty Ratty, you parrot the silliest shit. Would you go look up J. Krishnamurti and his talk about Buddhism. And then realize that J. Krishnamuti, though he has Buddhism by the balls, is just as full of shit as the Buddhists.
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As I understand it, the goal of an accomplished Buddhist meditator is to essentially remove most or all of his experience away from feeling and perception. So, there may be painful feelings and perceptions, however, in his heart he is detached from the clinging to that pain - and thus he no longer suffers. However there is Nibbana and Paranibbana. In Nibanna, there is a residue left over. The accomplished meditator will suffer because he still has form. But when he dies - and here’s where the eye rolling starts - he no longer is reborn. He permanently stays in the freedom of Nibbana.
His humanity after enlightenment is defined by equanimity. He sees others suffer and because he no longer suffers he has compassion for them. But he has developed equanimity through attaining enlightenment on his own.
“A rock does not suffer” … very good, Cog. That’s a very good observation. I think you’re ready to move on to grade three 
The effort is defined as “letting go”. And the letting go is gradual. So, it isn’t effortless. It takes years. You must know what to let go of and in what sequence.
Your effort is not self induced suffering if you are in fact letting go of the causes of suffering (ie. attachment to feelings and perceptions. Attachment to that which is by definition: ill; impermanent; and not-self). Do you think it is easy to let go of that darkness in our hearts that we have relied on for so long like a proverbial crutch of sorts? No. It is not. We cling to evil in our hearts. We don’t know any better. We are afraid of what would happen if we let go of it. We would disappear! Hence, people resist and hold on tight.
Krishnamurti can suck on rocks. I’ve never heard of him and I don’t care about his Advaita Vedanta Hindu Non-Dualism (just assuming that’s his teaching based on the title).
Hey! Who’s got two arms, two legs, and likes to stay warm in the Winter?
“Tsveta”
The Buddhist philosophy basically boils down to, Fake it till you make it. And I just don’t ascribe to that kind of perceptual nonsense.
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It would be interesting if you could expand?
It’s also referred to as the smile through the pain dilemma. Doesn’t mean the suffering has ended, it just means you’re choosing to ignore it for the comfortable lie.
LOL Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha… Buddhist Zombies! OMG that is so far off the mark as to be completely insane.
You Just said he was a zombie without feeling and perception… Ha ha ha ha ha… would you make up your mind?
When he dies he stays in a banana? Sounds yummy.
Enlightenment??? Defined by equanimity? Ha ha ha ha ha ha… YOU FOOL! I have a sutra for you.
The young monk was walking up the dirt road to the temple and contemplating his detachment. He contemplated with each and every step he took, aware of all but detached. Aware of the ground beneath his feet, the wind in his face, the corn stalks swaying in the breeze, an old broken fence, and the sound of the cows munching on the corn. Aware of the feeling of his staff in his hands and aware of first sight of the temple. As he approached the master, he was greeted and asked “What have you been doing.” “Practicing detachment and mindfulness replied the young monk.,” “And how has it been going.” “Very well. And he recounted his journy to the temple…” “You Fool!” shouted the master. “That corn is all we have to eat for the winter!” He struck the young man in the head and raced down the path to chase the cows out of the corn.
“We” don’t cling to shit! Yes, Krishnamurti sucks rocks. Absolutely. That does not mean he does not have Buddhism by the balls. You want to know what’s wrong with Christianity, Ask a Jew.
No one in this room on this side of the ocean gives a shit about Krishnamurti. We are nor discussing the man but arguments against buddhist thought. What’s your point? Stay ignorant, no one over here cares.
Tsveta : Feminine form of Tsvetan, meaning flower or blossom. Need a Sibling name for Tsveta ?
The homunculous has finally succeeded in taking over your brain.
It’s true. I don’t know what brand of Zen you’ve been subscribing to all your life, but “cessation of perception and feeling” is the object of Buddhist meditation.
Yeah well - ultimately the Arahant aims to feel and perceive nothing. But he will only achieve that in Parabanana - banana after death. That’s why they have the term “banana with residue”.
Kill the cows, smoke the meat. Cure your meat stick.
“Tsveta” - “sweater”
What do you call a girl no legs no arms - tastes best when aged and moldy?
“Brie”
@rat_spit The meditation procedure you put so much weight on is universal, it is not magical or any pathways to any truth. What one is doing is shutting down external stimuli and focusing on the internal process, what is in your mind. Eventually with enough training it becomes easier to shut off the external stimuli from your body’s senses. But once you have reached that state, you are not talking to anyone but yourself.
Figures! I wouild expect nothing less from such a challenge.
I believe our innate moral precepts, would deal with our expectations, positive or negative.