What if religion is just a metaphor?

[skriten]

@Cognostic

I always remember the story my grandmother told me

Funny you should mention that, given the fact that your grandmother was as crazy as a shithouse rat…

Edit: bedtime stories for sociopaths

[Cognostic]

You mean “crazy” in a good way… right? “Like…Wow that rollercoaster ride was crazy.” “In a good way, right?”

[skriten]

@Cognostic

In a good way, right?”

Uh…(looking around nervously)…sure, I mean…yeah, good crazy… (uncomfortably remembering the small box of toenails)…Yeah, you were real lucky to have such a grandmother… (mumble mumble…fucker’s cheese has slid off the cracker…)

Edit: fruitcake

[Cognostic]

Thanks Srkritn; you are my bestest friend!

[rat_spit]

@Cognostic

I always remember the story my grandmother told me about “The Kind Chimpanzee and the Smelly Rat Shit.”

Are you talking about MY shit? My shits are little pellets of joy. They’re fun to roll in your fingers and they smell like God’s green grass.

[Istvan]

@skriten

There are many of us who understand that there may be value above and beyond the literal in the myths. Many different cultures had/have myths which, if taken literally, are indeed absurd. That said, many also harbor evidence of an understanding of the world in which those cultures perceived themselves to exist.

Right. Our ancestors had the understanding of phenomena that worked for them.

Not for nothing, but even modern urban legends tell us a lot about the fears and self-image of the community in which they resonate. Whether they’re actually true or not is beside the point.

@skriten

I am reluctant to accept that Atheists as an identifiable group, can be casually referred to as “we” when referring to a particular attitude towards such a subject as mythology, considering the wide range of educational/cultural exposures present among those who self-identify as atheist.

And I say that a few counter-examples don’t invalidate a general rule. As I mentioned above, we could always count the amount of times we see someone praise the literary and philosophical value of mythology in the atheist com-box, as opposed to how many times it’s dismissed as sheer bullshit.

Just playing the odds, that’s all.

[Istvan]

@Cognostic

If you can swing an interesting mythology out of the story of Adam and Eve, more power to you.

I take a more existentialist approach, which reads the Adam & Eve story as an analogy to the human condition. We live in childish bliss until we understand our moral responsibilities, and the onus of ethical decision-making is our exit from Paradise into the uncertainty and anguish of lived experience.

@Cognostic

Really, dumb story in some ways… God was too stupid to remove the trees. But then without the magical trees it would not be a myth.

And anyone stupid enough to believe in magical trees, talking snakes, an omnipotent and omnipresent god who can not find Adam or Eve because they are hiding, is deserving of Mockery!

Indeed, we all know that mockery is what inspires all positive social change.

My attitude is that a literal reading of things like Genesis is absurd for good reason: if we’re not talking about what these myths mean, then we’re not really demonstrating respect for their literary or anthropological value.

[Sheldon]

@Istvan

You have to admit, the way “myth” has come to mean “lie” and the ubiquity of corny jokes about “talking snakes” aren’t the most reliable evidence that we take mythology seriously on any level.

Why should we take myths seriously, and what exactly would that involve? Myths are defined primarily as a traditional story, concerning the early history of a people or explaining a natural or social phenomenon, and typically involving supernatural beings or events. I have never seem any objective evidence for a supernatural event, or even that they are possible, it can also of course be defined as a widely held but false belief or idea.

@Istvan

You count how many times someone on the atheist message boards talks about how symbolically and philosophically rich mythology is, and I’ll count how many times it’s dismissed as bullshit. Wanna bet whose bucket fills up first?

Your bucket seems to be holding a straw man fallacy you’ve created, and a false dichotomy fallacy, not much else. If you wish to debate the value of a myth maybe you should do so, and leave the sweeping judgmental fallacies alone.

@Istvan

You have to admit, the way “myth” has come to mean “lie”

Atheists don’t define words, we use the dictionary like everyone else. Incidentally it’s secondary definition is defined as a widely held but false belief or idea. No point blaming atheism or atheists for that.

@Istvan

Not for nothing, but even modern urban legends tell us a lot about the fears and self-image of the community in which they resonate. Whether they’re actually true or not is beside the point.

Whether they’re true or not seems particularly important to many religions, So I’m not sure why you seem to be implying atheists are being unreasonable or unfair about myths, again I wonder what importance you are attaching them and why, until you stop dealing in generalisations, and generic straw men it’s hard to know what your actual point here is?

@Istvan

And I say that a few counter-examples don’t invalidate a general rule.

What general rule are you referring to, and what objective evidence can you demonstrate to support this “rule”?

@Istvan

we could always count the amount of times we see someone praise the literary and philosophical value of mythology in the atheist com-box, as opposed to how many times it’s dismissed as sheer bullshit.

I’m too busy counting the times you keep trying to pigeonhole atheists, when you know precisely only one thing about them, that they lack theistic belief. Again why so vague and cryptic, just tell us what myth you’re asserting has value, what you believe that value is, and why?

@Istvan

Just playing the odds, that’s all.

Just reeling of unevidenced straw men more like. This is a debate forum, was there something specifically you wished to debate?

@Istvan

I take a more existentialist approach, which reads the Adam & Eve story as an analogy to the human condition. We live in childish bliss until we understand our moral responsibilities, and the onus of ethical decision-making is our exit from Paradise into the uncertainty and anguish of lived experience.

Good for you, so what did you want to debate?

@Istvan

Indeed, we all know that mockery is what inspires all positive social change.

Are you saying sarcasm and humour have no value in achieving change, really? Are you familiar with political satire for example?

@Istvan

My attitude is that a literal reading of things like Genesis is absurd for good reason: if we’re not talking about what these myths mean, then we’re not really demonstrating respect for their literary or anthropological value.

You seem determined to avoid explaining what you believe they mean, or what value you believe they have, and why, or what objective evidence you can demonstrate to support those assertions, preferring to make sweeping and unevidenced generalisations about atheists you’ve not met or spoken to.

[Istvan]

@Sheldon

sweeping and unevidenced generalisations about atheists you’ve not met or spoken to.

It may or may not interest you to know that I’m an atheist. I’ve belonged to atheist groups online and IRL for decades, hosted various atheist discussion channels and a blog at Patheos Nonreligious. It’s not like I’m completely unfamiliar with the discourse in the atheist community or the breadth of opinion therein.

@Sheldon

I have never seen any objective evidence for

My years in the trenches have made me familiar with a type of atheist that is pretty much the nonreligious analogue of the Scripturebot: the science fan who can only approach religion as a matter of facts rather than of meaning and value. Nothing you’ve said constitutes evidence that it would be worth swimming through your tidal wave of snark to engage you. I’m sure you’ll get over it.

[skriten]

@Istvan

I mentioned above, we could always count the amount of times we see someone praise the literary and philosophical value of mythology in the atheist com-box, as opposed to how many times it’s dismissed as sheer bullshit

Uh, not sure to what you are referring in “atheist com-box”, but I hardly think you have any accurate grasp as to an overall view of the literary or philosophical values recognized by a cross-section of atheists in general.
Many atheists are capable of walking and chewing gum at the same time. Some of the funniest sarcastic satire is humorous because it is recognized as having discernible connections to widely accepted philosophical concepts, and/or famous literary works. That said, if it looks like bullshit and smells like bullshit…it might just be bullshit, even if it has value as fertilizer.

@Istvan

And I say that a few counter-examples don’t invalidate a general rule.

What are you talking about? Your dismissive comments fail to acknowledge the point that you are grossly generalizing based on an extremely limited sampling. What “rule” are you on about? Have you contrived a rule to bolster your unevidenced assumptions?
I am content to admit that there are those who overlook or even dismiss the notions of literary or philosophical values in myths. However, my personal experience would hint in the opposite. In spite of my personal experience I would never declare that to be the “rule”.

Edit: rules rule

[Cognostic]

SheldonAtheist

I’m glad someone decided to to this… I kept thinking about it but did not want to spend the time.

[Sheldon]

@Istvan

@Sheldon

sweeping and unevidenced generalisations about atheists you’ve not met or spoken to.

It may or may not interest you to know that I’m an atheist. I’ve belonged to atheist groups online and IRL for decades, hosted various atheist discussion channels and a blog at Patheos Nonreligious.

You’re right, it may or it may not, though what that has to do with my point you quoted is unclear?

@Istvan

It’s not like I’m completely unfamiliar with the discourse in the atheist community or the breadth of opinion therein.

You do love your straw men fallacies.

@Istvan

My years in the trenches have made me familiar with a type of atheist that is pretty much the nonreligious analogue of the Scripturebot: the science fan who can only approach religion as a matter of facts rather than of meaning and value.

Self aggrandising soliloquy, did you have a point?

@Istvan

the science fan who can only approach religion as a matter of facts rather than of meaning and value.

Are you trying to set a record for false dichotomy fallacies as well? Since when has science or facts been incompatible with meaning and value? You seem dishonestly to be peddling myths as having both, but keep evading sharing what you believe these to be, or why? This is not my first rodeo either champ.

@Istvan

Nothing you’ve said constitutes evidence that it would be worth swimming through your tidal wave of snark to engage you. I’m sure you’ll get over it.

So you don’t want debate anything at all, just to hurl tedious accusations, post flagged for trolling then. FYI there is nothing to “get over”, since you’ve offered nothing but sweeping unevidenced straw men.

[Sheldon]

@Cognostic

SheldonAtheist

I’m glad someone decided to to this… I kept thinking about it but did not want to spend the time.

He’s trolling, and I’d bet my lunch money he’s a theist as well, dishonestly misrepresenting agnosticism, if he even knows what it means.

He can easily prove me wrong of course.

1. Tell us what value and meaning he believes myths have, and which specific myths.
2. Tell us what objective evidence and or rational argument he can demonstrate to support this.
3. Explain what he wants to debate, and why.

I’m betting he will simply go into endless repeat mode, and hurl more ad hominem, as he did just now when I asked him, as I have asked him now more than once.

He has no interest in debate here, that much is clear.

[Tin-Man]

@skriten

Many atheists are capable of walking and chewing gum at the same time.

Really? Where? I need to find somebody who can teach me how to do that.

(Edit for lack of coordination.)

[Istvan]

@skriten

That said, if it looks like bullshit and smells like bullshit…it might just be bullshit, even if it has value as fertilizer.

Sigh.

Beam me up, Scotty.

[Cognostic]

I was also betting about as much a snowflake as possible.

[Sheldon]

@Istvan

Beam me up, Scotty.

Well since you’ve no interest in debate, and prefer vapid grandstanding, it might be for the best.

[skriten]

@Tin-Man

I need to find somebody who can teach me how to do that.

Well, therein lies the problem…or maybe the problem lies in the well…or maybe probing a theremin lies well…but I digress.
Anyhoo, sure, I could probably teach you to do that, but you would have to do me a favor in return, the nature and identification of which will be revealed after the fact, at my discretion.
If those conditions are amenable to you, then we can make arrangements for you to procure the necessary materials for the “learning experience”

Edit: Bazooka Joe

[skriten]

@Istvan

Beam me up, Scotty.

Oh I see, you left your responses to my questions and requests for clarification aboard a fictional starship. By all means zip off and relocate them…I shall wait with bated breath…

Edit: no dilithium needed