What do you think about the Fatima miracle of the Sun?

You can’t be converted to an atheist, only abandon your belief in a deity. Atheism is not a belief. Only facts dictate belief, so to be converted to disbelief makes no sense.

" Religious conversion is the adoption of a set of beliefs identified with one particular religious denomination to the exclusion of others . … This might be from one to another denomination within the same religion, for example, from Baptist to Catholic Christianity or from Sunni Islam to Shi’a Islam."

So by definition you cannot be converted to atheism.

1 Like

Well that just doesn’t match observation.

1 Like

I’m more confident that is what happened; than I am confident that you (or any other forum member beside myself) is a human being. EVERY religious miracle I’ve ever looked into was incredibly exaggerated.

eta: I have an explanation as to why that is the case (god isn’t real, surprise!); but I’d be interested in hearing a theist’s explanation that doesn’t involve an attack on my intelligence.

2 Likes

In all honesty, I am attempting to sow the seeds of doubt. That is no secret to the regulars in here.

The thing is, if one does not have a good reason to believe something, then they should withhold belief. We are now being raised in a culture where we are expected to have an opinion on everything. If a child in school is asked a question, they will never say “I do not know”. Instead pressure forces them to make up shit.

It is OK to say “I do not know”, and it is OK to withhold belief until one has good reason to do so.

Personally, I have never fully closed and locked the door on the possibility of some supreme being. I do not deny a god, I am just withholding my belief and commitment right now.

1 Like

And I do respect if one states “I take it on faith”. But the moment one offers any “proof” or argument, then they are attempting to justify their belief and that is subject to examination.

What is the basis for that claim. (Where’s Sheldon when I need him😁)?

Science does that all the time does it not? What good reason do we have to believe the behavior of a charmed quark? I’m not saying God is responsible; but, what a dilemma for scientists. Something that changes its behavior simply by observing it.

Thank you. I enjoy your perspective, it is unique—at least to me.

What good reason do we have to believe the behaviour of the judeo-christian god? Or any god, for that matter…

That’s not a dilemma at all. Nature does what nature does. The job of science is to observe it, and if possible to make descriptive and predictive laws and models, and to explain it using what we know. Science does not claim to know everything (only religion does – “goddidit”), but works with what is available. So far, there is no reason to believe there is anything supernatural behind anything.

Observing a system (any system, not just quantum mechanical ones) means interacting with it, which means an exchange of energy, momentum. Which again means that you change it. The behaviour is more complicated regarding QM, but there is nothing magical here. Once upon a time, the movements of the sun, the moon, and the stars was magical, but we’ve sorted that out since then. I’m pretty sure we will eventually learn more about QM and its inner workings, given enough time and research.

Contrast that with the claims regarding behaviour of the judeo-christian god - they have not changed at all, even after we have learned that the claimed attributes and interactions are impossible or just not there, and that Nature just does not work the way the ultra-religous claim.

Science does not make pronouncements, it just offers the best tentative explanation based on the current evidence. And any respectable scientist continually attempts to tear down theories, that is how progress is made. For example, Einstein came up with his famous theory of relativity because he discovered an inconsistency in Newton’s theories.

Quarks were proposed to explain the properties of particles, then confirmed by Fermilab. Unlike your god, math has predicted them, all of the data and theories agree with each other, they can be explored, different teams have discovered the different quarks, and now they have been proven by experiment. But as I explained about scientists attempting to tear down theories, new propositions and data may move science beyond what we currently know about quarks.

In religion, a pronouncement is defended and never changes. Nothing is studied, and nothing can be confirmed.

Sound epistemological reasoning, if accepting claims is not based on sufficient objective evidence, then what is your criteria for disbelief?

No, scientific ideas are only accepted if sufficient objective evidence supports them, Even at the start of an idea, when there isn’t a consensus that it is correct, because it might be based on little more than imagination and speculation, it still must be falsifiable, as this is an essential requirement of all scientific ideas. Nothing is ringfenced from scrutiny in science, all ideas no matter how well established through objective evidenced must remain tentative, and open to revision if the evidence demands it. This is one of science’s greatest strengths, its ability to acknowledge at any time that an idea may be wrong if the evidence demands it. The polar opposite of religions, which without any objective evidence insist they have uncovered absolute esoteric truths that are immutable. They have ended up with egg on their faces as they try desperate rationalisations as to why those immutable claims have been entirely debunked by scientific evidence. The birth of science saw the Catholic church try to suppress objective facts in favour of archaic superstition, by subjecting Galileo to the inquisition.

There is no dilemma for science or scientists, science rejects all unfalsifiable claims as unscientific, it still surprises me how many theists don’t appear to know this most basic requirement of the method. Also the scientific method’s success are quantifiable, and an objective indicator that the method doesn’t just work, but is by far and away the best method we have for understanding reality.

By comparison religions don’t seem to have expanded our knowledge of the natural world and universe at all, despite thousands of years of navel gazing. Indeed biblical and koranic claims about both have been largely debunked by the advancement of science in just a few hundred years.

You have yet to show a shred of evidence that supports the claim in this so called miracle, that anything happened at all? Nor has anyone offered any valid way to falsify the claim, thus it would be rejected as unscientific by any scientists who cared at all about their reputation.

It’s not unique here, since it is based on basic dictionary definitions. Dictionary definitions are based on common usage. As I explained conversion in this context is defined as the fact of changing one’s religion or beliefs or the action of persuading someone else to change theirs. Atheism is not a belief, nor does it require any, thus what you described would be abandoning beliefs, not converting to other beliefs. This isn’t simply semantics, if we don’t adhere to definitions then what we are conveying loses clarity.

Here’s a link to four claimed miracles being debunked by proper scientific scrutiny. The Fatima “miracle” is in there…

Did you seriously just ask that?

I think any Christian, that being you, that goes on to an “ATHEIST” forum is already having doubts about your religion. Why else did you come on here?

Or else attempt to convert atheists to their religion.

At least I am being honest.

Particles in particle physics change when they collide with other particles. Observing something necessarily changes it because you typically observe something by hitting it with light.

If you remove the light source, the effect disappears. If instead you remove the observer and keep the light: later experiments will suggest that indeed, the same kind of changes happened when the light hit it without the observer present.

It is weird to be sure; but it generally isn’t as weird as it is often presented, imo. The weirdness stems from the nature of these changes; not from the obvious fact that hitting things can change them.

1 Like

Science and scientists do nothing of the sort! What a surprise, you completely misunderstand the scientific method.

It’s not a dilemma, because it is supported by demonstrable evidence and elegant math. Please point to evidence as strong as scientists have for the behavior of quarks, for a god that can do miracles. We’ll wait…

If a scientist behaved like theists do, by holding up completely unsupported claims, as if they are truth, their careers would be over.

Scientists, want other scientists to do their best to disprove their theories. One visit to a scientific conference will prove that scientists go out of their way to avoid talking in certainties. You will constantly hear language like, “please correct me if I am wrong”, or “there are others here that are better versed in the math on this”, etc.

There is experimental evidence for the behavior of charmed quarks, that can be repeated, and elegant math to support it. It also doesn’t matter whether a Jewish, Christian, Hindu, Muslim or atheist scientist repeats the experiment, they will all get the same results. Now, ask those same theist scientists about the behavior of gods, and they will all provide mostly conflicting and mutually exclusive accounts.

Which of those sounds like it may be a more reliable path to truth?

3 Likes

How did you eliminate the possibility that it was an advanced alien race, messing with a bunch of ignorant humans, by inducing similar hallucinations in some and nothing in others?

I am not saying that aliens are a good explanation either, just wondering how you eliminated them?

But instead, you are guilty of yet another fallacy, argument from ignorance. “if this thing really happened, and is as of yet, unexplained, my god wins as the explanation by default.”

How do you even know that a god is a possible candidate explanation for such an event, if it did occur?

I did say that I didn’t rule that out. I just haven’t met any aliens so I rank it a lesser possibility.

You missed my point on both issues. First, regarding the charmed quark,. I was referring to the entanglement/observation dilemma. I didn’t think I needed to elaborate on that as you all are smarter than me, the poor ol ignorant theist.

Second, I’m asking this group about Fatima, because I find it a bit hard to swallow myself. I surmised all you all might have some ideas about it that I haven’t thought of. So far, not.

Yea, I agree, but not to likey that we will be observing quarks via optics. Unless your talking about some type of photon collider that I have not heard of. I was referring to the entanglement/observation dilemma.

I was responding to David Killens claim that “if one does not have good reason to believe something, they should withhold belief.”

My point is that the math is only a model and not the real thing, so one could argue that math alone is not a good reason to believe in entanglement, yet science does. Of course “good reason” is subjective, so one can argue that math is a good reason to believe. And franky, that is where I am on the subject. A better example might by Copernicus’ heliocentrism. At the time science did not have good reason to believe that the earth was not the center of everything. So, by David’s claim, Copernicus should have with held belief. Now, I am assuming that all Copernicus had was an idea that maybe what seems obvious (that the sun, moon and stars are going around him) is not actually so. So, he worked out a mathematical model, that could not be proved until Galileo came along. I suppose you can argue he had good reason because he believed in the power of math. But, he had to hold on to an idea in his mind that conflicted with what could be visually substantiated—or so it seemed.

So if my belief in God is based on a personal experience that cannot be conveyed in a way that someone else can verify, that doesn’t mean I don’t have good reason to believe in God. But I grant you that it does not provide evidence that you (or anyone else) should. I know that, and am trying not to suggest any one in AR should believe in God base on me or my comments.

I have tried to convey several times now that my interest in this forum is to gain a wider world view. My only access to an atheist world view is mostly through Christian Apologists. And they are a bit biased.

It is believed because it makes predictions that match observation (because it works!); that is what makes it science. All the rest is window trappings.

1 Like