Whereas I consider most religious beliefs to be quite loopy, believing that guff does not in itself make a person generally irrational, stupid or crazy imo.
My parents were both devout Catholics. Each was highly intelligent and capable of deep intellectual thought. --EXCEPT in the areas of their religion. My father also became quite irrational if anyone had the gall to criticise one of his kids. This has been a common life experience for me. Over the years, I’ve also run across brilliant, devout people trained in theology, biblical hermeneutics and exegesis. My opinion of such people has always been '“what a waste of a good mind”
The notion of a free-thinking human being is almost an oxymoron. So far I’ve never known any human being who is/was consistently rational in daily life.
Imo the notion of us (non believers) vs them ( believers) may be very comforting to both positions. I admit to a frisson of smug superiority whenever I see a believer saying something especially ignorant and/or stupid. Almost a daily occurrence here***. I think it may be an endomorph thing. However, the division between those two life positions is I think a false dichotomy, based on unfalsifiable generalisations.
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Not sure I’ve ever seen one of those. Can you give a few examples please.
*** it has been my observation over about decade, that people who frequent internet forums area atypical of their community. Consequently, imo not a reasonable sample from which to draw generalisations
Actually it does when it comes to political or social decision making by an electorate. An example is Modi’s sweeping victory in 2019 general election in India. After a dismal economic performance of this government from 2014-19, the Hindu electorate still elected it because Modi made an appeal to their " Hindu Interests ". BJP in India from the very beginning used the ’ Hindutva’ agenda in their campaign process. Oh, how fruitful it is still for them.During this pandemic when people had just started questioning some of the decisions of the government, Modi gifted them Ram Mandir and they were so happy that they forgot their real problems.
Hindutva plays an important role in Indian elections. And, Religion does so by influencing our rational thinking in a negative way. So, was I wrong to say that ’ religion impedes reasoning’ ?
However, you are quite right that religious people are capable of some very rational decisions. The leaders of BJP and RSS are very rational at decision making, they are very good at planning on how to win elections. I would be a fool to call Modi a foolish person, ‘he is an astute and charismatic politician.’ People who employ religion with vested interests are very well aware of their economic wellbeing, so, yes they are rational. If you equate profit making to intelligence, then there is no need for Atheism, either. You can make tremendous amount of profit by using religion, by propagating it. I can assure you that the religious institutions in my country are very affluent ,yes, only a fool, again, would call them irrational. And ,you can use religion for your economic ‘rationality’.
Don’t you think people who choose their leader only based on his/her religious identity have limited or impeded rationality? But, the leader, who is successful in convincing the people that they should vote for him just because he represents their religious interests, is well versed in Machiavellian Real Politik. He is, by no means, irrational.
What I actually said was “believing that guff does not in itself make a person generally irrational, stupid or crazy imo.”
A skeptic, my intention was and is to avoid sweeping generalisations, which includes the facile demonising of large groups of people by making unfalsifiable claims.***
But you did generalise my point. Since the subject of the debate was political ideology and its relationship with religion, then of course my point was about political and social rationality( and my fault was that I failed to mention it and some religions have economic doctrines, too. That’s another debate). I was never talking about some individual spirituality based on Catholicism. I was making a point on how religion serves as a superstructure for capitalism by propagating the notion of “God’s will”, and nonetheless, by dividing people. In other words, religion plays an important role in the political economy. I was talking about the close relationship between Institutionalized religion and status-quoist politics. But, you generalised it by mixing it with personal faith.
And, the people, who follow religion, can also be good at their professions and completely able to make good decisions on professional front, since those decisions are by economic and professional rationale. My point was that if one’s political and social decisions were based religious mysticism, then it is bound to be irrational, since the basic tenet of religion is unquestioning obedience, which is against the basic principle of democracy. And that is the simple problem in today’s India. Here atheists and communists are called simply anti-national. And I can prove that people are taking their political decisions based on Religion. Look below:
Why do you think they attack both ‘secularism’ and ‘socialism’. Because, socialist claim that the negativities of social life can be removed only through practical and rational actions (hence, secular and scientific actions) and not through mysticism. Thus, Socialism poses a direct threat to the religious authoritarianism, i.e, to RSS.
I am not demonizing the people, but the religious authorities, which for their own interests,mislead people and,in turn, distort the democratic institutions and values by shrouding them with religious mysticism.
It has been a privilege to talk with you. I sincerely thank you for that. And, of course, the AR for providing such platform. I’m looking forward to many constructive debates and exchange of thoughts.
Steady on; you tore me to pieces. I haven’t finished thinking about your posts. I’m not entirely sure we have a fundamental disagreement.
As for religion and economics; a pet peeve. I deeply resent religions’ tax free status, at least in my country.
I see the Catholic church as vast and innately corrupt corporation, with about the same level of lofty ideals in practice as my Jack Russell terrier.
Latterly (ahem) there is the morally bankrupt spectacle of the Mormons. They seem very big on a bourgeois prosperity and life style. By ‘they’ I mean the few I’ve actually met and bits and pieces I’ve gleaned over the years.
Once had a go at reading the book of Mormon. Managed about a hundred pages. At first I wondered how any sane person could believe that nonsense. On reflection I realised it’s no loopier than mainstream christianity. It is also presented as divine revelation. (with alleged witnesses) Joe Smith also seems to have made an effort to make the book of Mormon read like the King James version of the bible. Imo doesn’t quite work. The man was an immoral arsehole, crook and sexual deviate.
I haven’t mentioned Scientology because imo it isn’t a religion. It’s a scam, which was invented by Ron Hubbard to make himself rich and provide personal power.
On a philosophical note, the main claim that religion makes is that ‘Religion will purify the human soul.’ But, it is evident from the facts from your country as well as from mine that Religion has failed in its purpose to purify the souls of its proponents( that is, the God Men), let alone the people. The god men in my country are often accused with the charges of money laundering, rape, sexual harrassment, etc( same are even convicted). Let’s put aside the criminal side and take a quick look into their way of life:
While ancient Indian Philosopies( not Hindu) essentially promote solitary and simple ways of living, these God men promote a capitalistic lifestyle. And, most importantly, they have close relationships with the right-wing Hindu politicians. Look below:
This is true for other countries also, this church and politics alliances. Take for example, Trump and the Evangelical Church:
My conclusion is when the Institutionalized religion itself is so much corrupted, then it is unable to ’ purify the human soul.’
We can aptly say that religion and capitalism sustain each other. Because, religion draws its strength from the existing political economy, that is, capitalism and, to return the debt religion propagates capitalism and its values subtly.
Hmmmm …many of the religious adherents are required to give to the church a percentage of their income. This isn’t a choice but a requirement of the faithful. I also wouldn’t say this form of income by the churches is capitalism.
Religion may use capitalism (religions are a business after all) but they also use every other political ideology for their benefit (top dog wins - usually). Official recognition by political systems goes hand in hand with organized religion.
OR they use the political system as a counter measure when not benefiting (approved). Their adherents and outsiders are told they are “persecuted” and “suppressed” for their faith which allows their business to continue.
In my opinion - religion is its OWN parasite that feeds off of whatever political or economic system/ideology it finds itself living within.
There is another one that is even more extreme that I could not find in my brief search. These people genuinely believe trump is their savior and will save the world from all the “corruption.”
Truly mind blowing how wrong people can be. Even the supposed leaders in their fancy suits.
Hahahahaha-
Just finished arguing with some woman on fb that refuses to wear a mask.
I may have lost another “friend” hahahaha … dipshits.
Big Trump religious supporter and out there protesting for her freedoms!
I have no issue with the personal superstitions of others . This is because my formal studies convinced me that generally speaking, such widespread beliefs and practices exist because they meet important human needs. (this is only one view, and not the consensus here)
HOWEVER, it is my position that organised religion is the greatest confidence trick ever perpetrated on the human race.
In the early 70’s I was lot more gullible and looked into all kinds of humbug.:
EG the Theosophists, some Indian gurus and their ‘spiritual’ practices. Specifically Paramahansa Yogananda and Kriya Yoga,. Was taught how to be an astrologer, even cast charts for a few years. Looked at whole load of stuff which comes under the heading ‘The Occult’ —and of course about dozen books of “I’m too ignorant too unimaginative or too stupid to think of anything else, so aliens/ god(s) did it”
During those years I called myself an agnostic because I still believed in god and ‘the spiritual realm’ .It took me twenty years of searching without result before I was forced to admit to myself that I am an atheist—that realisation was not so much a choice as an inevitable conclusion
The best argument for not wearing a mask. "It does you no fucking good at all. A virus can enter your body through your eyes. As soon as you touch your mask you have broken the sterile field and the damn thing is no good. A frigging mask was never designed to go on and off and on and off an on and off all day long. That is honestly fucking lubricous. ]
The Rebuttal: The mask is not for you. It is for the people around you. The corona virus has an incubation period of 14 days. That means you can run around the city for 14 days, contagious to everyone you run across without knowing you are sick. The mask prevents you from infecting your friends and other people unknowingly. It is a social politeness and even a moral responsibility to help protect those around you from exposure to the virus. The mask helps (does not prevent but helps) to prevent “YOU” from spreading the virus unknowingly. It is a common courtesy to your fellow human being.
Yah … it’s known to be useless and everyone who doesn’t believe her listens to “fake news” … blah blah blah.
I made her cry . She called me a B (seriously wrote it like that). I told her to fucking grow up - start by using adult language … yes, I’m a bitch that wears a mask because I know how to assess risk/reward and care about the well-being of the apparent “virtually nobody” …the old and people who are more vulnerable.
…many of the religious adherents are required to give to the church a percentage of their income. This isn’t a choice but a requirement of the faithful. I also wouldn’t say this form of income by the churches is capitalism.
that feeds off of whatever political or economic system/ideology it finds itself living within.
. She called me a B (seriously wrote it like that). I told her to fucking grow up - start by using adult language … yes, I’m a bitch that wears a mask because I know how to assess risk/reward and care about the well-being of the apparent “virtually nobody” …the old and people who are more vulnerable.