I find it interesting (as a FORMER Christian) how very few Christians fully believe in the power of prayer. If they really believed in the Bible’s message of “whatever you ask of in my name, so shall it be given thee,” then organizations like Focus On the Family among others would never have to influence politics or the rest of us “immoral or unethical heathens.” If they don’t believe in God’s omnipotence, then stop calling yourselves “Christians” and quit the hypocrisy! I think Christians should have a T-shirt made that says “Just Pray!” and accept what they’re supposed to believe in. What’s the problem? God’s omnipotence not good enough for you!?
1 Like
The holiness / Pentecostal branch of fundamentalism and its derivatives actually take up this point by pretending that things like babbling incoherently or simply declaring “victory” whether they experience it or not constitutes answered prayer.
Most fundies are more circumspect than that. Sometimes they resort to “God Moves in Mysterious Ways” in the face of unanswered prayer; sometimes they hint at things like secret sin or insufficient piety on the part of the victim; sometimes they resort to “God helps those who help themselves” and emphasizing the role of personal action / responsibility to give God something to work with, so to speak. But ultimately it all boils down to covering for / excusing / deflecting from the fact that their lives are just as disappointing and tragic and painful as anyone else’s.
The proximal reason for my departure from that faith was this very fact. If there’s no real difference between a so-called “righteous” life and any other sort of life, then what is the point. Also, I wasn’t capable, constitutionally, of play-acting the so-called “victorious Christian life”. That was the main source of cognitive dissonance. Later when I was out of the “reality distortion field”, I saw a lot of other reasons that it was dysfunctional, of course.
1 Like
Great points and I agree! It was just my way of saying that I’m tired of all the hypocrisy that goes on with Christian organizations that want to impose their beliefs on the rest of us fine non-believers. They’re hypocrites because they say they believe the Bible is the word of God they MUST have faith in, but then express their doubts. I really don’t believe there’s such a thing as a “true Christian.” If there were, and prayer really worked, we heathens would become non-existent. We’d have our own “rapture.”
2 Likes
A little saying I coined many months ago that I like to use now and then: “Prayer: When GOD’S Perfect Plan isn’t quite perfect enough for YOU.”
5 Likes
Why not turn this around, using the Old Testament examples of god disciplining Israel as a reason why American Christians aren’t having their prayers answered?
When foreign nations threatened or conquered Israel (the Philistines, the Assyrians, the Babylonians) because god was in control of all things he used these immoral heathens to discipline the wayward nation of Israel for ITS sinfulness. Not the sinfulness of the invading heathens but the sinfulness of the god-fearing Israelites themselves. No, the sin of Israel.
The moral of the story? If America is beset by troubles then stop pointing the finger of blame at everyone else but yourself. The Democrats? The gays? The immigrants? Nope, none of them are to blame for god visiting troubles upon America. No, look to your own purification first. After all, if you live an impure life, how can you judge others?
Look at the examples in scripture and you will see that it was the fault of the Israelites themselves that brought god’s wrath upon them. They first had to get right with god by purifying themselves before their nation would prosper, flourish and know lasting peace.
The lesson to be learned here? Stop trying to purify others by using laws, censorship, book burning and protests. Purify yourself first and then god’s goodness towards America will flow from that.
Thank you,
Walter.
1 Like
Purify myself how? What is the definition of “purity” in this discussion?
Also, please define “goodness.”
Are we to suppose that people of other faiths (besides Christianity) don’t have the qualities of goodness and/or purity?
Also, which Christian sect has the best example of goodness and purity? There are several thousand different versions of Christianity, and (with some exceptions) each version claims that the other sects have it wrong.
1 Like
Kevin, are you an American Christian who points his finger at the Democrats, the gays and the immigrants for all of America’s troubles today?
If not, then my comments aren’t directed towards you.
If you are, then get on your knees and ask god to show you what he means by goodness and purity.
My comments were not mean to be taken as any kind of measurement of the purity and goodness of other faiths. I couched my argument strictly in terms of what the Bible says about the history of Israel.
Nor can I answer your question about which Christian sect is the best example of goodness and purity. Because the Bible is open to so many different interpretations of these things.
My comments were aimed at the rank and file of American Christians…
- Who don’t read and don’t know what the Bible says
- Who look to politicians to tell them how to live godly lives
- Who always see others as the wrong doers and never look at their own lives
Thank you,
Walter.
1 Like
Nah they will use this to their ends in all sorts of ways but never to self-examine.
The closest they will come is to say that the church has “condoned” the sins of the surrounding society through insufficient opposition. So it IS LGBTQ, immigrants, and their other bogeymen of choice that must be eradicated as a first step. They are ignorant of what “judgment must begin at the household of God” means. And they certainly won’t concern themselves with “condoning” the endless “sins” of Trump himself.
1 Like
I can …….. MINE! Lol.
I hear you mordant, but there’s a question to be asked.
Q.
Where in the New Testament does it say that the role of Christ’s Body (i.e., the church) is to actively oppose the sins of the ungodly who are outside of the Body of Christ?
A.
Nowhere. Yes, the sinful deeds of the ungodly are condemned in the epistles, but this was done as instructions by Paul, James, John, etc. on how the Christians should avoid such things. Not how the Christians should go out of their way to stop non-Christians from being sinful.
You can read it here… Ephesians 5 : 1 - 20
**1 Follow God’s example, therefore, as dearly loved children **
2 and walk in the way of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
**3 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. **
4 Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving.
5 For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
**6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. **
7 Therefore do not be partners with them.
**8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light 9 (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) **
**10 and find out what pleases the Lord. **
**11 Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. **
**12 It is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. **
**13 But everything exposed by the light becomes visible—and everything that is illuminated becomes a light. **
14 This is why it is said:
“Wake up, sleeper,
rise from the dead,
and Christ will shine on you.”
**15 Be very careful, then, how you live—not as unwise but as wise, **
**16 making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. **
**17 Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord’s will is. **
**18 Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit, **
**19 speaking to one another with psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit. Sing and make music from your heart to the Lord, **
20 always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
You see? These are not instructions to go out and stop non-Christians from sinning. Instead the focus is squarely (and only) on Christians in the Church and how they should conduct themselves.
Even verse 11, which seems to say that the evil deeds of the disobedient must be exposed and brought to light, doesn’t apply to anyone who isn’t a Christian. Why? Because the growth and health of the Church doesn’t depend on Christians exposing the evil of non-Christians.
The Body of Christ is purified, made holier and made stronger by Christians exposing the evil deeds of their FELLOW Christians. That is why there must be no sexual immorality, greed, obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking among them. Not among non-Christians. Among Christians. Impure, immoral and greedy Christians are idolaters and will not inherit God’s kingdom. Because even though they might consider themselves Christians their disobedience will cause their ruin.
That is why Paul is telling the Ephesians to have nothing to do with these disobedient Christians. Their judgment comes from God and not from any other Christian - so do not be partners in their disobedient ways.
This is what I meant in reply to Kevin about Christians purifying themselves. By purifying themselves Christians purify the Church, which is what God wants. If they do that then they are being faithful and obedient to God’s will.
Thank you,
Walter.
1 Like
When Christians say “god has a plan for all of us”, that is when you realize that “prayer” is contradictory.
2 Likes
If you’re paying attention to that particular verse, yes. But the dogmas aren’t all coherent and self consistent. Another dogma is the concept of corporate punishment. God does not just hold each individual responsible for their personal conduct, but also families, cities, churches, nations, and ultimately, the world. Thus God’s judgment can fall upon a group for their overall sins and/or for their failure to sufficiently be the “leaven” or “salt” that speaks with, say, sufficient prophetic force against these sins. That is (the excuse) why fundamentalists are so preoccupied with trying to control people outside the faith, in the host society for the faith. They are repulsed by what they see as “sin”, but in particular, by having to in any way, even just a little bit, conform to or tolerate the claimed sin. So for example if the host society says you can’t discriminate in employment or healthcare against LGBTQ folks, or that you must base any sort of treatment or aid on science where it conflicts with scripture, even just treat them no differently than anyone else – that is a bridge too far. They durst not “condone” that lest they become subject to God’s wrath themselves.
We can of course argue that these concepts and teachings are only thinly based on misread scripture, compared to personal (dis)obedience that you’re discussing, but I’m just pointing out what’s front and center for these folks today in their thinking (and what was true back in my day, but they were afraid to openly state it at the time). Ultimately for the right price they’ll always abandon their lofty principles, reinterpret scripture or rationalize its application as necessary.
1 Like
I have a slightly different take.
Evangelical Christians are both religiously conservative and politically conservatives - and conservatives by their very nature are easily frightened by things that are different, things they don’t understand. If you ask them which is worse, a muslim, a hindu, or an atheist, they will say atheist, followed by hindu, followed by the muslim. That’s because muslims worship a god not unlike the one they do, and the Hindus worship a god, but it is different and not familiar, but the atheist doesn’t worship anything, and they just can not understand that!
And in order to deal with that fear, they try to get everyone to conform to their way of thinking, even if it’s just going through the motions, they feel less fearful. Sometimes that means eliminating anyone who doesn’t conform or who is different. Their religion just gives them an excuse to be a horrible person.
2 Likes
I don’t dispute what you say mordant and if you look at my first post in this thread I cover the corporate punishment of all Israel by foreign invaders. Israel sinned and was duly punished by god.
But if I may quote you…
Thus God’s judgment can fall upon a group for their overall sins and/or for their failure to sufficiently be the “leaven” or “salt” that speaks with, say, sufficient prophetic force against these sins. That is (the excuse) why fundamentalists are so preoccupied with trying to control people outside the faith, in the host society for the faith.
…in describing this you are talking about two different and separate things. The first is God’s judgement on a particular group. The second is the attempts by the fundies to control others outside of their faith.
Does God share the role of judge with anyone? No. Of course not. Does God share the role of punisher with anyone? Same answer. Does God share the role of discipliner with anyone? Ditto. So if God judges, punishes and disciplines a group then that is exclusively his business and it is not for anyone, not even his devout followers, to share in. Their role is to observe what God does and wisely learn from it. Not to assume the mantle of judge themselves and start judging others in His name.
So, trying to control the lives of others is simply not an activity that any true Christian should do. Because to do that, even in the name of God, is to usurp God’s role as judge and to assume that title for themselves.
This is the grievous sin because this is exactly what the Pharisees did. They believed themselves superior to the general populace in their learning of and strict adherence to the Law. So, they judged the populace and found it wanting, falling far short of their own rigorous standards.
This is what many Christian fundamentalists do, not just in regard to the Law but to the Bible as a whole. Instead of living by God’s Word themselves, they do as the Pharisees did and use it as a means of judging others. They do as the Pharisees did and use scripture as a hammer to beat down sinners.
Sinners being anyone who doesn’t conform to the Fundy way of thinking - to bring Caprimark1’s excellent point into my reply.
Thank you,
Walter.
3 Likes
I have come to think of the scriptures as a template that can mean whatever a person wants it to mean. It is that way with all holy books, not just the Bible. Vague or, by turns, conflicting pronouncements that can be used to justify the needs of any moment / situation depending on what you cherry pick. People can (and do) use the scriptures in a certain way to justify an ethical, empathetic approach to others. And they just as easily use it to control and abuse others.
In my view, one can and should arrive at empathy, love, ethics, all of it, organically, through reason and observation and practice, not by divine command or edict. I no longer believe the Christians or any other group are the inventors or protectors of same or that any holy book is the source of it. Although I do respect that people can be good enough to read the scriptures while squinting a certain way that produces good and kind behavior, I no longer trust such outcomes. Largely because ultimately it all circles back around to the failed epistemology of religious faith. It is better to do the right things for the right reasons, rather than for poor ones.
1 Like
I don’t disagree; this is also in the mix. Quite apart from religion, research has shown conservative minds to have very distinct thought patterns and distinct – shall we say – concerns or anxieties. It’s almost as if the conservative and liberal branches of Christianity have evolved to adapt to those mindsets.
I wonder if, somewhere, there’s some sort of research on the percentage of conservative children who eventually grow up to defect to liberalism and vice versa – and specifically evangelicals defecting to liberal Christianity and vice versa. I’ve heard of specific cases of both, but wonder how widespread it is.
My operating theory is that you grow up understanding on some level that you may lose at least some of the support and approval of the people closest to you if you “betray” the way you were raised, so it comes with a high cost and a lot of repression. It then takes enough cognitive dissonance and/or unfortunate life events to move you to the “other column”. This is particularly true where a particular religious system becomes so dominant that the overall culture reinforces it, as happens with evangelicalism in the Bible Belt in the US. And just as with LGBTQ folks, another option is to live a lie – to go through the motions and avoid conflict by “fitting in” superficially.
This is one reason that fundamentalists strive to send their children to church-run colleges. In a secular university, by the end of their freshman year, the scales often fall from their eyes and they realize how insular and naive they have been raised. Church-affiliated universities try to create an environment where that’s less likely to happen, with policies like in loco parentis where the school takes over the policing role on their children’s dorm life on behalf of the parents.
Christians spend a lot of time talking to themselves.
1 Like
Perhaps Matthew 25 : 31 - 46 is relevant here, mordant?
Christians should feed and give drink to those who need it, should clothe the naked, should invite strangers into their homes, should visit the sick and those in prison because of this parable. And if they can’t do these things out of the goodness of their hearts then they should at least do them in holy fear of God, to avoid the same fate as Satan - the eternal hellfire.
Instead, the reverse seems to be true.
They want to put strangers in prison and deny them clothes, food and drink, even if they are sick - all in God’s name, so that theirs can remain a Christian nation. Which is not selflessness, it is selfishness. And yet millions of so-called godly Americans cannot see this and cannot see where they are heading.
The Final Judgment
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit upon his glorious throne.
32 All the nations will be gathered in his presence, and he will separate the people as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 He will place the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world.
35 For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home.
36 I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.’
37 “Then these righteous ones will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink?
38 Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing?
39 When did we ever see you sick or in prison and visit you?’
40 “And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were doing it to me!’
41 “Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons.
42 For I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink.
43 I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’
44 “Then they will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you?’
45 “And he will answer, ‘I tell you the truth, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.’
46 “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.”
It sure is. But it’s a verse no less likely to be ignored or perverted than any other. Usually for fundamentalists, it’s “kindness for we but not thee”. For example who is a “stranger”? Another Christian of the same variety (and skin color, and sexual orientation) who is new to town. See how easy that is? You can’t go being nice to the brown, the heavily accented, the Muslim, the “woke”, the trans. Those are perverts. Can’t be condoned.
And what is heaven to them? A place full of liberals, homosexuals, the divorced, or whatever their particular bogeymen are? Certainly not.
They don’t think these things through.
The sect I grew up in was a largely rural and suburban one, but someone in the Detroit suburbs decided it would be nice to try to convert the inner-city heathens. The guy who ran that ministry was, necessarily, possessed of some awareness of the real world. He was invited to speak to the student body of the Bible Institute I attended. And I never forgot the point he made … and most definitely not the reaction of the school leadership.
He said that you were going to be astounded at who you ended up sharing heaven with. People with different backgrounds, ideas, accents, skin colors. The President of the school was visibly squirming in his chair up on the platform. I noted that. It was the first crack in my belief, watching that. That speaker was never invited back nor spoken of again, either.
We were just a bunch of privileged bigots. You can say we ignored that passage in Matthew. But I’d argue that a nice mainstream liberal Christian is ignoring all the red-faced passages damning the non-conformant to hell, too. The ones that speak of god’s jealousy and wrath, that describe in florid detail the comeuppance of the ungodly, their evil scheming and delight in oppressing the righteous. The otherizing is in there, right along with the sweetness and light. It is there to be selectively attended to when it suits people.
They also behave like they are their god. The whole “my god works through me” is the biggest load of bullshit when it comes to justifying proselytizing.
1 Like