I let the boys go to the Kingdom Hall when they’d visit their grandma/aunt who are JWs. They’d get read My Book of Bible Stories and exposed to JW kid videos . Never said no.
Best decision I made because the boys would come home and laugh at what was being taught. We’d talk about it or I’d ask “why’s that funny?” AND much of it came down to shut they saw through right away and no one “re-informing the correct way to interpret it”.
My mom/aunt won’t have anything to do with them anymore because they are “of age” (to die at Armageddon) and haven’t chosen worshipping Jehovah.
The boys learnt quick the difference between qualities of love, acceptance, boundaries and bullshit.
I know you said you no longer have religious discussions with your family. (Excellent idea, by the way.) However, a suggestion, if I may, for future reference…
First of all, I make it a point to not engage in religious discussions with “the faithful” unless THEY initiate it. Even then, though, I will usually give them an option to back out, depending on the situation and who they are. (I try to be a fair guy. ) Anyway, should they persist, here are a couple of things to keep in mind.
Most often you will be engaged by an “average” church-goer who knows only what their preacher tells them. (Family, friends, acquaintances, etc.) Therefore, using tactics that might be used against an experienced “Apologetics Debater” will get you nowhere. Mainly because your average Joe/Jane Christian will not understand most of the terms you use, especially if you are mentioning logic fallacies. As far as they are concerned, you are using “Devil Talk”, and you lose their attention in an instant. You MUST meet them on THEIR level.
When you start demanding EVEDENCE AND PROOF of their god/Jesus, you might as well find a brick wall, ask the WALL for the evidence/proof, and then start banging your head against it. The only difference is that at least the wall will not think you are crazy. Remember, in Christian eyes, the “evidence and proof” of their god is ALL AROUND them, every single day. And they cannot fathom… they cannot even remotely comprehend… how another person CANNOT see that evidence/proof. Therefore, in THEIR mind, YOU are the crazy person. Thus, anything/everything you say at that point is just gibberish to them. Again, you will get nowhere.
If you REALLY want to plant seeds of doubt, then use their own bible/teachings against them. Use their own GOD against them. No fancy fallacy terms required. No requests for evedence/proof necessary. At THEIR level, using language/terms THEY understand, ask them questions to which you already know the “biblical answer”, and allow them to answer as you know they likely will. After they answer, THEN provide them with a real-life scenario that contradicts the “biblical answer” and ask them to explain it. Be polite. Even be helpful. You sincerely want to know how they rationalize and “justify” such discrepancies. (Sure, it’s a trap/ambush. But they started it, remember?)
Basically, my typical approach is along the lines of, “Please, help me to understand what you understand.” Why should I be confrontational when I have nothing to prove and nothing vested in what they believe? Let THEM be the one walking away scratching their heads and wondering, “What the hell just happened?” Meanwhile, I walk away smiling to myself and thinking, “Fee, that was fun.” See the difference?
She initiated a religious discussion with me long ago that ended badly. So we agreed not to do that. She thinks religious is a trigger for me. They don’t even pray in front of me. They know I won’t come over to family get togethers like dinner and shit.
The other day my grandma was with her best friend and her friend started talking about how “god brought them together”. The first thought that came to my mind was that her friend was delusional. Second thing was that I was ready to leave. I wasn’t up for discussing superstitious bullshit with her wack job of a friend and embarrass my grandmother.
True. They think DNA and the Bible are evidence. They even went so far to make “Christian Science”. They even have hamfisted the Gospel Jesus into history to “validate” their belief that he ever existed.
This is a tactic that I need to learn. Can you show me some examples?
Pressed for time right now, but will try to get back on later with a couple of examples after my stepdaughter gets here to take control of my grandson.
I use this as an ambush tactic in a conversation. When dealing with coworkers at least. I just wait till they inevitably brag about some awful shit they did, or have to speak their opinion on a news story or awful situation.
I had a coworker tell me all about how he goes to church, does bible study, gives this much money, yada, yada, yada. Then tells me about his trip to Las Vegas and going to a strip club. I flicked that little gem back at him every time he tried telling anyone about his character. I would just make sarcastic little comments any time he would say anything about something being immoral or wrong.
We had a new coworker and of course everyone wants to make good impressions to new employees. The new guy tells him about loving his wife and family, so this guy starts telling him about his wife and kids. Of course the asshole I am, I interject and ask “Oh is that why you had a strippers legs wrapped around your head in Vegas 6 months ago?”
He never fully came around, but he asked me all about my beliefs and how I have morals and values. He envied my mechanical skill and couldn’t stand that I was always helpful and cracked jokes with him even after assassinating his character on many occasions. He hated that he liked me. He shook my hand when I quit and told me, “fuck you for leaving me stuck with these worthless douchebags”
Unfortunately it is very uncomfortable, I had days of ranting to my wife. He said this or that , what the fucking hell, he is fucking insane! Yet bit my tongue the next day and kept being the helpful like-able atheist mechanic.
Don’t argue the Bible with a Christian unless you are very well versed. It is far better to discount it completely with “Why should I believe in it.”
(Response) Well it is the inspired word of God.
"Who told you that? The bible does not make that claim? The Bible is a story book.
A book of “Chinese Whispers” collected from hundreds of texts and then put together between 325 and 360 CE. by vote and committee.
Where did you get the idea that God inspired it?
(They will fail at this… They will go to faith and belief.)
Whenever a Christian says "Faith” You have them up against the wall.
“Faith” is not a path to Knowledge or Truth. Buddhists, Hindus, Zorasterians, Taoists, Jews who do not recognize your Jesus, Pagans, Satanists (I always throw them in… yea yea I know but the Christians don’t) all have “Faith.” Faith doesn’t mean anything.
Well, faith in the right thing. So, faith in faith then? Faith is useless and it gets you nowhere. (Faith is the Christian fallback position.)
The Bible is the claim, not the evidence. It is a book of stories. I find it best to treat it as such. It avoids all the apologetics the faithful have arrived at after 2000 years of practice.
As opinionated as I am, it is a valuable survival tool. I am also pedantic as fuck when I get around the ignorant. Have you listened to Tim Minchin’s Storm? That could be me. Top that with a morbid sense of humor. What’s the difference between a truckload of bowling balls and a truckload of babies? You can unload the babies with a pitchfork. Unless I am doing the presenting and in front of the crowd, or I am in some way hosting, or possibly trying to get laid, I am perfectly content to keep to myself and not play the socialite. You can dress me up and take me out and I will not embarrass you. I know how to behave, shake hands, make eye contact, smile, compliment others, accept compliments graciously, and I will do so until my battery runs out. Then I want to go home or hide.
Okay, phew! FINALLY quiet in the house for a little while. Gonna try to give you a few pointers, and then an example. We will stick with the Christian faith for now, because it is obviously the most encountered in our parts. Keep in mind, though, these are not “set-in-concrete” strict guidelines that will work on everybody. They are simply tactics that need to be adjusted to fit the individual in the discussion. The key is to be flexible. In no particular order…
Always keep your subject “off balance”. YOU control the flow of the discussion, but in such a way as to let your subject believe he/she is in control. (Takes practice and experience to do this.)
VERY IMPORTANT: Always stay relaxed and calm. Be friendly and sincere, no matter how frazzled or upset your subject might become. Remember, YOU don’t have a horse in this race. YOU have nothing to lose. On the other hand, everything you say that he/she cannot rationally counter will be seen as a direct attack on their precious god and faith. EXPECT them to get their feathers ruffled a bit.
“Playing dumb” is often a good way to lure them into a trap. (Just sayin’…)
REMEMBER: You are NOT trying to “deconvert” them. That is NOT your goal. So get that shit out of your head. Your attitude should be you couldn’t care less if they believe you or change their mind or not. You are only engaging in a friendly conversation at THEIR request. If they simply dismiss what you say and walk away, it’s no skin off your nose. Who cares?
Those will do for now, as they are really the foundation “rules”, anyway. There are are few other odds-n-ends that are tougher to explain, because they involve reading people and other such “skills”. And those can only be learned over time. Now, as an example, let me see if I can figure out how to post a link to my JW thread. Hang on…
Okay, hope that works. Will save me much repeated typing. Enjoy.
@MrDawn Oh, crap! Almost forgot a very critical part of the discussion. Namely, NEVER assume what the individual may or may not believe. In order to successfully set traps during the conversation, it is VITAL you clarify the individual’s personal beliefs. Here are my standard “Pre-discussion Questions”. (No particular order…)
Do you believe your god is All-knowing and All-powerful? (And make them specify what those two terms mean to them. Knowing their parameters is KEY.)
Do you believe your god is Perfect? It NEVER makes a mistake?
Do you believe your god made EVERYTHING in our known universe? (As a bonus, you might ask how long they believe it took their god to do so. Depends on the situation.)
Do you believe your god has a Perfect Plan that cannot be changed by anything or anybody?
(Here’s a favorite of mine. And be specific.) Do you believe your god knows EVERYTHING about you? Knew everything you would ever think, say, and do throughout your entire life long before you even existed? That he purposely created you exactly the way you are as part of his Perfect Plan?
So, when you are asking these questions, DO NOT make it sound like an interrogation! You HAVE TO BE asking in such a way as to appear curious and interested in their beliefs. As if you are allowing them to teach you something. (Playing dumb comes in handy here at times.) All along, however, you are simply setting the foundation for your traps, and they are not even aware you are doing it. Basically, leave them NO WIGGLE ROOM when they later try to back away from a point or question. And, I cannot stress this enough, you have GOT TO PUT AWAY the anger and animosity. Otherwise, this will all be worthless to you. Have fun.
Do you believe your god is All-knowing and All-powerful? If God is all-knowing, you don’t have free will. Everything is in accordance with god’s plan. He is making you believe and you have no choice. Nothing happens that god does not know about. He has planned all the rapes and murders.
They will bring up evil. So god is not powerful enough to stop evil. So he lets it happen for a while? What sort of asshole stands in a room while a woman is raped, or a child killed and does nothing? I’m not sure I like your god.
God is perfect? LOL… Why did he need to start over with a flood? Why did he have to write two bibles? Why didn’t he create Adam perfect too? Why does he need a blood sacrifice to forgive me for a sin I had nothing to do with? Why did he write 3 versions of the 10 commandments? Why did he abandon the Jews for the Christians?
So he made flesh-eating diseases; crib death, aids, brain cancer, deformed children, and forced us to kill and eat meat to live?
LOL… Perfect plan - (see above)
Perfect plan again, just worded differently. (See above the above.)
Very important part here. Regardless of your approach it is unlikely you will “deconvert”them. In my case I really DON’T care if they believe me or change their mind. Clearly they are self deluded and need to be self corrected.
Ahhh…”Judge not lest ye be judged sayeth the wall” because we are all “Just another brick in the wall”…after all we don’t want to end up in a car racing toward a brick wall and waste time arguing over who sits where…so when you find yourself up against a brick wall, just remember to try to be the kind of person who “could entertain a brick wall”…
The best part of the “Evil” debate is that their god PURPOSELY CREATED said evil. Part of his Perfect Plan, remember? They HATE when you tell them that. They absolutely can’t stand it. And I have yet to encounter anybody who can provide a reasonable/rational explanation for why such a LOVING GOD would do such a thing. Usually there is an attempt to deflect it back to Satan, but - WHOOPSIE - their god also purposely created Satan. And so it goes…
. Never said no. 
) Anyway, should they persist, here are a couple of things to keep in mind.
