Morality without God is an Illusion

All too often, the mythology fanboys that turn up here are woefully ill prepared for anything even remotely resembling proper discourse. They’ve been fed with fairy stories by their “pastors”, to the effect that all they have to do is regurgitate the standard apologetic fabrications that said “pastors” have spoon fed them with, and hey presto, they’ll magically convert the “heathens” or whatever other pejorative they have lurking in the wings to describe atheists.

Then, they arrive here …

… and discover that not only have their apologetics been presented here on dozens of previous occasions, by similarly ill-prepared mythology fanboy cannon fodder, but that we’re lying in wait with the ordnance. They discover to their horror, that instead of this being the walkover they thought it would be, what’s about to happen is that they’re about to take part in a naval battle, operating from an inflatable dinghy using peashooters, while we’ve turned up with an entire fleet of Iowa Class battleships stocked with Katies. ('Zilla will love this analogy :smiley: ).

Many will retire from the arena with the predictable case of shell shock. However, there will be the odd duplicitous one, pulling the Monty Pytho Black Knight act, pretending that his garbage hasn’t been utterly eviscerated, and relying upon the usual combination of distraction and dishonesty to try and keep the now flaming and partically molten dinghy afloat. We’ve had a few of these in the past, and some prove to be persistent. Though eventually, we find their limits.

Perhaps the biggest shock for some of the more naive ones, is learning that instead of treating their favourite choice of Bronze Age mythology as a “sacred” source of ineffable wisdom, we point and laugh at it for being the bad fiction that it is, and do so precisely because we’ve read more of it than they have. The next shock is learning that we treat apologetics not as some unassailable system of reasoning, but as a bad joke when compared with, for example, Willard Van Ormand Quine’s Methods of Logic. In some cases, this is followed by the shock of being presented with “Here’s the contents of 23 peer reviewed scientific papers, and detailed expositions thereof, that all point to your post being feculent drivel”.

Of course, even the weakest of the mythology fanboy cannon fodder serve a purposer here - principally, target practice. The less feeble ones are more useful in this regard, but ultimately, we’ve enough resources at our disposal to ensure that no amount of robotic repeat parroting of lies in classis Goebbels fashion, or stubborn, bone-headed stonewalling in the face of facts, will be enough to overcome the pounding that reality can serve up once the firefight becomes serious.

We see them all here - ranging from the hapless and witless 16 years olds hoping to impress some girl in their “youth Bible study group” by "sticking it to the stupid atheists™ ", through to the mendacious ideological Daleks of creationism, several of whom have spent time being coached by actual professional liars for doctrine (e.g., Arsewater in Genesis, the Institute for Cretinist Research, or the Duplicity Institute). The requisite signatures soon become apparent. They’re all dispatched sooner or later.

We do, of course, have the advantage that this is a properly curated arena of discourse, though several of the defenders of reality manage to enjoy success even in the cesspit that is Faecesbook. Though the less well trained are advised to avoid that sewage pond until they’ve sharpened their talons elsewhere. However, the moment an arena of discourse is properly managed, and abuses thereof are pounced upon with relentless vigour, both the hapless and the duplicitous eventually flounce off to try their luck elsewhere.

But sadly, vigilance remains a necessity. Hopefully, several here will be motivated to set the requisite leadership examples. :slight_smile:

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The “standard” is virally communicated. The standard is like “perfection”. Perfection is naturally subjective and always in flux because it depends on what you know. Something that is “perfect” can still be flawed in ways you cannot see or don’t yet know.

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Psychopaths can equally know the law and society’s standards of right and wrong. What’s different? Christians may also feel they need to be told what’s wrong. A person either has their own morality or someone else’s. And our individual morality is “Trained” on our experiences and training by our parents. This helps us evolve on whatever our parents’ moral failings were while possibly being the best of their potential.

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We always see the “God is required for morality” canard in one form or another.

Has anyone here ever heard of Nunuku Whenua?

Around 1500 AD, a group of Maori people left New Zealand, and established themselves on Pitt Island and Chatham Island, which are about 500 nautical miles from NZ.

Nunuku Whenua was a boat captain, explorer, naked eye astronomer, a bas-relief artist (some of his work survives to this day in a limestone cave), and a high ranking chief of the Hamata tribe.

He was also a cannibal and a head hunter.

There was a battle going on between two tribes, and he seems to have placed himself between the beligerants and raised up his hands, and said “Enough. From this moment forward, no war, no cannibalism, and no murder. This is the law. Anyone who violates this law will have their intestines rot.”

He worked very hard–and was successful–at transforming his culture from cannibals and head hunters into a society of pacifists.

His social experiment worked for over 300 years until white people came in boats and fucked everything up.

And my point is that no god (or gods) was needed for a single man to make a difference in morality and ethics.

The god apologists might say that he was inspired by and got his authority and strength from god (who works in mysterious ways, btw). Their logic is twisted in so many ways, but I’ll commend them for the imagination.

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We could list potential excuses apologists would offer.

  1. If you deny the existence of god, then you’re not being moral.
  2. God is so powerful he can even make atheists abandon evil, but they will still go to hell for denying god’s existence.
  3. They wouldn’t have turned to evil in the first place, if they hadn’t abandoned god.

There’s a start, anyone care to play? :sunglasses: :innocent:

Ok, I concede the point.

My argument about Nunuku Whenua seemed strong at the time.

God is gay he doesn’t exist and he’s a cancer

Well I can’t say your first post is not distinctive anyway, meant as levity I assume?

  1. They believe in god, but just won’t admit it.
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Welcome, @jeffab.

What is your evidence to substantiate these statements?

As one who grew up in fundamentalist Christianity, I think it comes from the notion that morality is ultimately rules, and rules have to be promulgated by someone able to enforce them or they won’t be followed. For this reason, morality without a “backing authority” is not binding on anyone and is, therefore, not morality but … something else. Perhaps, a seductive counterfeit, but not “true” morality.

I assume that people of other religious persuasions are making the argument for similar reasons. The only other reason I can think of would be that it is one way to make god a “necessary entity” to make human society go 'round. But I tend to think that’s a secondary argument of convenience. The main point seems to be that morality definitionally requires a strong man telling you what to do and threatening you with consequences if you disobey.

What’s lost on people making this argument is that if you adhere to a moral standard because you’re afraid of being punished for not doing so, that’s far inferior to adhering to a moral standard out of love or empathy, because you enjoy doing well, etc. In Christian fundamentalism, I see this as a side effect of the doctrine of man’s total depravity. They genuinely believe that man without God is completely morally depraved and capable only of duplicity and harm. “The [human] heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked … who can know it?”

When you are steeped in this kind of thinking from a very young age, it’s very hard to have any confidence at all in human empathy because while in reality it’s just a function of having working mirror neurons, you’re convinced you’re incapable of it natively. Only by some magic fairy dust falling on you from high can you feel love, empathy, or compassion that might inform sound moral judgments. God is the sole source of these things, so far as you can understand after years of this sort of indoctrination.

In more liberal precincts of Christianity I suppose there’s a “softer” version of this thinking where people are thought to have some native kindness but it is too weak or imperfect on its own to truly and sustainably succeed in doing the Right Things – much in the same way that a young child is clumsy and naive in attempts to act “grown up” without adult guidance, one needs God’s guiding / steadying hand to succeed at virtue.

There’s a nasty side effect of this sort of thinking that is under-appreciated, I think: you tend to think of virtues like kindness, patience, tenderness and the like as, at best, impossible ideals that you can only distantly approach – as incredibly challenging “asks” that no one can be very good at. It gives you a free pass to be impatient, brusque, and rough on people and think they should be grateful for any performative niceness you might occasionally muster up – being the great personal sacrifice that it is!

In truth, the great virtues can be practiced and valued like anything else. You can as well become a pleasant, helpful, generous, kind person as you can learn to ride a bicycle. Quite the opposite of being some sort of exotic, mystical ideal that can only be glancingly attained, I’ve personally witnessed people continually improve and overcome substantial personal problems without any sort of claims that a god is involved in their process.

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You formulate this well. Over the years, I have come to the conclusion that religious people(*) just refuse to engage their cognitive abilities to even try to think about alternative explanations, for example about the origins of moral norms. Even just imagining some “what if” scenarios and alternative explanations seem to be challenging to them. I suggest part of the explanation might be that they have never learned how to challenge thoughts and set values.

I’m not even for a microsecond suggesting that I am without prejudice or that I am correct in everything. But at least I try to improve, and my views on this and that have shifted over time as 1) society has changed, 2) I’ve read books and exposed myself to new ideas, and 3) I’ve given a conscious effort in some areas to challenge my (formerly) set beliefs. It’s a slow process, but it can be done.

Two examples:

  1. Religion. I was brought up with the idea that there is a god, and that you must believe and keep your “child’s faith”. Now, this was Nordic style lutheran, so quite “soft” and not very dogmatic. I estimate that it took around 10-15 years for this to slowly erode away as I grew up, became an adult, got non-religious friends, exposed myself to new ideas, and could make my own decisions.
  2. Homosexuality. As a child, I constantly heard the adults joke, snicker and talk in derogatory ways about “homos”, “butt friends”, etc. in very loaded language. Naturally, this formed my early view on homosexuality as something icky and unnatural. But as I grew up and became friends with both homosexual and bisexual people, I started wondering why they would do that if it really was so icky. The final turning point was at a student party where, because of circumstances I have forgotten, the topic of homosexuality came up, whereby a male friend of mine and I kissed each other on the lips in front of his girlfriend to make a statement (she LOLed and was totally OK with it). It was not icky, but not something I’m going to repeat because sexual preferences.

(*) Actually not just religious people, but also those deep into political ideologies.

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Mordant,

You paint a pretty bleak picture, but I think there are things that can be done to improve things. I’ve heard that if you repeat things over and over, then people will tend to think it’s true - something Joesph Goebbels said. So here’s what I think would be a good approach:

As a child, I learned that if I treat people badly, I am likely to be treated badly, in turn. If I want people to treat me well, I am expected to treat them well. It’s called the Golden Rule, and it serves as the basis for most morality. It’s also not in the Bible, so no god involved.

So if that is said over and over, maybe the folks that think morality MUST be told to people, will understand that morality could come from within.

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And that’s exactly why it is so important for religionists to indoctrinate children: imprint religious ideas into the malleable child brains before they have a chance to learn about science and secular ideas.

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Bingo. And another insightful post preserved for posterity.

The “you are a disgusting creature and need a cosmic dictator to rule over you” aspect of American Fundagelicalism is not only pernicious because of the damage it inflicts upon the victims thereof, but because of its frightening utility value to Earthly dictators. As we’re seeing right now.

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I can be bleak, but not sure what was so bleak about the post I believe you’re responding to. The first step to a better world is to face reality squarely as it is. But my final point was basically that people absolutely can be good, kind, ethical, empathetic, and so on … and this can be developed far more readily than most people think it can. No different than getting good at turning a wrench of playing the piano or whatever. It’s just another skill, assuming you have working mirror neurons (are not a sociopath). The main obstacle isn’t humans being limited; it is mostly learned helplessness. The moral limitations are in between people’s ears.

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This x 1000. Exactly.

Just as I pointed out that people can readily be proficient at being decent human beings, they can be just as proficient at being terrible human beings, and the new regime (I refuse to call it an Administration anymore) is definitely a race to the bottom.

I read today an essay written by someone with experience coming of age in some other autocracy, who said that for the first year or so, bad as it is, you ain’t seen nothin’ yet. After the asshats figure out they can be maximal asshats without any consequences, they will be so emboldened that it will shift your calculus of whether it’s safe to travel or even go outside. The regime will impose martial law anytime they see peaceful protest, but turn a blind eye to someone burning a cross on your lawn or hectoring you for some perceived “wokeness”. People start avoiding eye contact, keep their heads down, stop trusting.

Of course the pardoning of the “worst of the worst” from the 1/6 insurrection will have organized its way down to knuckle-draggers everywhere by then, giving them marching orders and focus.

I was in my mid 20s before I started questioning things, my mid 30s before I stopped resisting questioning things, my mid 40s before I embraced labels like “atheist” without reservation, my mid 50s before I felt I had pried most of it out of my head. I’ve only really felt free for about 15 years. It’s been a slow process.

Ironically my mother was Swedish Lutheran but she and my Dad (a lapsed Catholic) embraced fundamentalist Christianity at about age 40 or so, roughly when I was born (officially converted at age 5), so fundamentalism is all I’ve known of religion. The only thing I had going for me was my parents had already been socialized to be decent human beings. They never beat me with a rod and inadvertently insulated me from the more controlling aspects of the belief system. It cut both ways: I was burdened with the ideology but also couldn’t clearly see how vile and controlling it actually was; I tended to take too much of their teaching as abstract or aspirational when it was literally intended to be accepted at face value.

Even so, the deconversion process was time-consuming and non-linear.

It seems they are now asking for pardons from crimes not committed on J6. It wouldn’t surprise me in the least if they are granted it.