Meaning and Value of Faith

@Sheldon I’m not attacking your (dis)belief, friend. I am just offering my perspective. What I have written are the ways I came to believe in deity. Do with it what you will.
When all the pieces began to fit and I realized there was an order, I realized what that missing piece for me was. Personally.
It brought me the joy all the theists I used to sneer at talked about.
What is weird is that they didn’t need my proof to feel the way I did about God.
I think I did.
We’re all different, but we can help each other.
Some people search and are met with fools or experiences that change them. Some people let the perception of other people dictate how they will read a text, like it’s the dark ages ( and that goes for theists and irreligious people alike)

I have just encouraged you to look outside your own limitations. Doing so, brought me to this forum, to some excellent conversation, has broaden my perspective, and now has begun to change our life.

I try to try to keep an open perspective. To reeinvent the boxes. Most of them were made a really long time ago.

I can see the spider woman in the creation mythos of the Dine (Navajo) as Earth’s magnetic field. How do you explain the invisible to a child?

Spider thread… Things are connected even though you may not be able to see how.


This is a picture from the NASA website when they were tracking a dent in Earth’s magnetic field.
https://www.nasa.gov/feature/nasa-researchers-track-slowly-splitting-dent-in-earth-s-magnetic-field

I believe:

“When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.”

Another great one is: Beware of false prophets which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.You shall know them by their fruits.

Do men gather grapes of thorns or figs of thistles?
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. (Matthew 7:15)
I know this to be true. A good person does good things no matter what they say. A bad person does bad things no matter what they say. What does that say about the people claiming to believe in the man who it’s supposed to have said that and then does awful things?

They don’t define the doctrine. They are not exemplars. They are phonies riding on the coattails of religion.

The truth moves you…and I found it in the scriptures. It’s okay that you haven’t. I’m not judging you.

The things that I write are the things that have moved me. That’s it. It just my perspective. Thank you for sharing yours with me.

I’m afraid I disagree. The fact I don’t understand calculus or germ theory doesn’t change the validity of those ideas.

I would say that if an idea is both vague, and unsupported by objective evidence, then withholding belief is justified.

This carries more significance if the provenance of the idea is claimed to originate from a deity with limitless knowledge to form the idea, and limitless power to communicate it.

It’s for the writer to properly and clearly communicate what they mean, not for the reader to subjectively interpret what they think it means. If we do the latter then whatever we are reading will follow our own bias and mean what we want it to.

The same logic that you used to determine what is valuable but not fully understood (germ theory) is what I use to experience faith.

I agree with you:
It’s for the writer to properly and clearly communicate what they mean, not for the reader to subjectively interpret what they think it means.
I’m working on being more clear.

Germ theory is testable and it can be explained in great detail, each explanation building on the previous explanation. Faith does not do that.

For example, prayer relies on faith. If you tested prayer (and it has been done) the odds are less than a flip of the coin.

Germ theory delivers each and every time. It produces consistent results. And we know each step of the process, and why the results are what they are.

With “faith”, you have no idea what the outcome will be, or why.

I never claimed you were?

Well that’s what I have been doing, rationally examining your beliefs, and commenting on them, where this is objectively possible.

Well even this suggest a presuppositional bias, that life is some puzzle we have to piece together. I’d need to see objective evidence demonstrated for such a claim before I could believe.

I’m glad, but this doesn’t lend any credence to the belief of course. People can derive joy from all manner of things, and they don’t have to have any basis in factual reality either.

Well you keep claimng to have proof, but you can’t demonstrate anything approaching objective evidence, so I must remain dubious.

Well the text either is supported by objective evidence or it is not, if not then how anyone reads it has no real relevance to whether I believe it or not. Though obviously adherents of other religions make precisely the same claim, and they cannot all be right, though they could all be wrong of course.

How so? In what way are you suggesting my examination of religious claims were limiting me up until now?

Good, then it was time well spent.

Hmm, then the claim is meaningless, sorry.

Detectable and measurable, thus we can and do see how, making the comparison dubious.

I don’t believe that any prophesy has a supernatural explanation or cause, and by now we should all know why.

Well that’s just a meaningless tautology. We are evolved fallible apes, and thus will make mistakes. The best we can do is try to learn from them, and try not to repeat them. I have done bad things in my life, I’ve also done good, so your rationale seems very wrong to me.

That’s a textbook example of a no true Scotsman fallacy sorry.

Well sorry, but you clearly are, because it’s clear you’re claiming I’m missing some esoteric truth in the bible. I don’t believe this of course, and you’ve offered no objective reason for me to think otherwise.

Well you’re welcome of course. I don’t bear any antipathy towards theists per se, though I reserve the right to judge whether their beliefs contain anything pernicious. You seem like like a nice genuine person, and I hope that you remain so.

Please give my regards to your son, and wish him well from me.

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Not even remotely true sorry. Germ theory like all scientific theories is underpinned by a weight of sufficient objective evidence, and the scientific method produces quantifiable objective results. Faith is useless in measuring the validity of any claim or belief, as it is inherently biased by its very nature. To base a belief solely on faith is in no way comparable to the rigorous methodology of science.

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:roll_eyes: There is esoteric (intended for or likely to be understood by only a small number of people with a specialized knowledge or interest). There is a book, the bible. There is faith (belief without evidence).

This is not “getting to what is true”.

The siren call of the special … believing without evidence an imaginary pondering :thinking:

OK - I just now walked over to my cookbook. I just now, randomly, opened it. I took a picture of the page:

Let’s see what esoteric special meaning is hidden with…

First - numbers are symbolic. Hmmmm (2+4=6). Six is “imperfect” or flawed. This may be directing me towards “flawed thinking” OH a warning :warning:

Chop, peel and crumble. “Dissect, get past
the outer layer, false “faiths” will crumble (like a weak building under pressure)”
YES!!! I’m starting to see these greater truths!

Awesome :sunglasses:… numbers - Ah, I allowed my “inner sight” to guide me to 1/2, halve and 8 = 2 oh and along with 10 (interesting, IF I add them it’s 12) YES!!! Complete. 12 is a complete number (dozen, months in year,
etc)!!!

I completely understand now what you are saying! In fact I guess I could have just looked at the cow and arrow - it’s all BULLSHIT :+1:

:hugs:

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@Whitefire13 I get what you’re saying completely. But there’s a flip side to that… One where you refuse to recognize value or significance in anything.
I’ve read your words when talking about being a parent and I know that that is not true about you. You wouldn’t have even been able to perceive the way you do otherwise.
What I’m saying is that there are truths that I have found in the Bible. There are truths that most people would agree with no matter what their (ir)religious affiliation:
Matthew 7:20 (related summary)
We know a person’s true intent by their actions, not their words.

That’s the truth!

If you can agree with that, then you can agree with me.
And really, I’m not judging you.

How could I?

@Sheldon we are all just theorizing with varying degrees of success. Heck, we have to evolve just we understand what we are and why.
I’ve decided that I don’t want to be limited anymore.
Most of you seem like you are thoughtful, that you would research criticism also. Not just who said that? But where did they get that information?
If you are willing to do that, you are more receptive than a lot of people claiming to be Christian.

I don’t care if you judge me. I judge all the time. I :heart: judge Judy :woman_judge:. Judges make decisions based on a standard of evidence.

Your lack of judgement is obvious, as is a low, UN-methodical, UN-measurable standard for evidence.

To recognize value is subjective. Likewise significance.

One cannot set a truth standard to these descriptors, but humans can come to agreements what we as a group deem valuable or significant.

@Whitefire13 here’s that tomato/ tomAUto again.

I will use your words of choice: Are you in agreement, as I am in agreement that we know a person by their actions not their words?

If so, there is something (I understand that it is a minor example) that you and I both agree with that can be found in the scriptures.

What I am getting at is, there is a ton of verifiable history as well as some good advice in those pages, but if you are closed to them-- it’s like anything else, it’ll sound like nonsense. You’ll just throw it back in the river.

Nope. No tomato/tomatoe; potato/potatoe… lol

We are saying VERY different things - unless YOU don’t mean to use the word “truth”…

So you have found statements of value THAT agree with what YOU deem “valuable”.

Yah?

There are some valuable statements in the bible. :woman_shrugging:t2: I agree. So what? I can find or take value from about every situation or conversation.

THE question is - the lessons in the bible YOU do not deem “valuable” (ie “cherry picking”) … are these still “so inspired of god and true?”

IF NOT - then you are doing what I have said humans do - WE put the meaning “in” WE determine our actions. WE are responsible.

Not some invisible friend/s or foe

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WTF are you on about? The new testament convicts people of sin for “Thought Crimes” No action needed,

Matthew 21, 22
21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”

Actions do not matter, You can be convicted of thought crime in the bible.

23 Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it.

5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.
Corinthians 10:5

The story of the Tax Collector should stand Parament. His actions completely sinful but heart and mind belonged to God. God did not care about his actions at all.

Thinking is the crime, Not Action.

In fact - all action can be forgiven, Murder, rape, incest, homosexuality, arson, everything that is sinful in the bible can be forgiven but for one thing. A THOUGHT … Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. (How in the fuck are you going to take an action against a Holy Ghost?) It is a thought crime of the highest order. One of the only unforgivable sins, Matthew (12: 31-32), we read, “Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. A THOUGHT CRIME. And whoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age, or in the age to come.”

The same idea that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is unforgivable is found in Luke 12:10 and Mark 3:29. “THOUGHT CRIMES”

LOL. Got to keep this piece of bullshit in my memory bank!

And I have found truths and great moral messages in Spiderman comics. The Brooklyn Bridge exists, as described in the Spiderman comic. And the statement “with great powers comes great responsibility”, is very profound.

If someone stated 99 truths that everyone agrees on, is that any guarantee that number 100 is also true? Yes, those 99 truths may indicate the person is honest. But it is also a standard ploy of con men.

Each and every statement must stand on it’s own, no matter the author. Just because some famous or brilliant person makes a statement, I will not bow to “appeal to authority” and instead verify their statement before accepting.

And that is why I do not hold the bible with any reverence, I treat it as a piece of very questionable fiction.

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Think I’ve already said the bibles is not reliable as a history. Engage your cerebral cortex:

An adult can walk at about 4 miles an hour. Say a person began in the centre of Nineveh and walked in straight line to to the outer perimeter of the city. Lets say only 8 hours a day walking. That means walking 32 miles day. 96 miles in 3 days. Halve it to 4 miles a day. That’s a 48 mile radius. Halve it again to two hours a day. That’s a radius of 24 miles. Not sure there were any cities of that size in around 700 bce

Best information I can find is that in the seventh century bce ancient Nineveh covered about 750 hectares with a population of around 120,000. That is huge for the time, but in no way the largest city in the world even at that time.

They were s l o w walkers

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=me-BOWwtm2Q

Who’s Mary, and why do homosexuals want her?

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Sorry to be noodge, but that’s not right.

All that is needed for a marriage to exist is agreement between the two people. Church action only sanctifies the fact. A marriage is made legal by it being officially registered Before the law as changed, gays could not register their marriage. That had all kinds of legal ramifications.

For centuries, all that was needed in Europe at least was for two people to agree to be married and begin cohabitating .Not even a witness was required, and certainly not a priest.

I suspect divorce was a relatively simple thing for the common man. Then the church stuck its oar in and fucked everything up.

This all changed because of monarchies and the aristocracy. Marriage became what it is essentially is today; a civil contract to legitimise children and to protect existing property and inherited property.

Until relatively recently [in Australia] a person born out of wedlock was illegitimate and could not inherit anything. (they can now) Plus sometimes crucially, any child born to a married woman was legally a child of the marriage. DNA testing has changed that a bit.