Maybe Trump Isn't Lying

Debate Room
1

Interesting way of understanding the political dynamic.

Trump’s untruths have become so extreme that no one seriously believes most of them anymore. He hasn’t ended eight wars, doesn’t have 100% approval for his Iranian “excursion” that he “won”, etc.

Instead he’s simply expressing contempt for everyone and everything. And this is what is starting to get through to his true believers: they now feel betrayed. Even they feel his contempt, as the economy deteriorates and he claims that it isn’t, etc.. They don’t feel special anymore.

This reminds me of the book, On Bullshit that talks about how bullshitting is qualitatively different (and worse) than lying. A liar at least knows what’s true and tries to subvert it. A bullshitter doesn’t care about or even necessarily know the truth – they only care that what they’re saying serves their purposes and thus, bullshitting inevitably becomes totally disconnected from reality.

I’m starting to wonder if all the fact-checking and outrage about the right has much of a point because they’re just bullshitting us and they know it. Maybe it dignifies the notion that they have actual views or positions when all they really have is a nihilistic desire to fuck with people – whether that’s to put one over on you or empty your pocket or simply kill you. I think things have gotten to the point where there are literally no good faith arguments coming from that direction any more, not even mistaken ones. It is just about “winning” and “owning the libs” for its own sake.

Or am I missing something?

2

Malignant narcissism - Wikipedia

Relevant?

3

The blatant, in your face, easily disproved lies are infuriating. I’ve even seen his supporters say they voted for him because they were tired of being lied to by the other side, totally discounting his endless stream of lies. Peoples capacity to believe lies they find appealing seems a big part of human nature. I think it even largely accounts for religious beliefs.

2 Likes
4

What could be even more scary? A malignant narcissist with dementia:

5

Here’s another look at the current state of affairs under Trump. Though the article doesn’t much discuss it, it does point out that if Trump’s quislings end up “getting away” with their crimes “without consequence”, we will suffer terribly for it.

6

I do worry about it, Goml.

Because of this reasoning. In the past such a man might have had command of an army or nation. Depending on when in the past they did so is the defining factor of how much harm they could have done. Up until a certain point in history the maximum amount of harm they could inflict, in the form of wars, purges and killings was limited to how far their power could reach. With the coming of gunpowder and ocean-crossing ships, that reach was extended to other continents. The advent of rail and air transport, radio and rocketry enabled world wars that involved every continent. These days, with nuclear and biological weapons, satellites, ballistic missiles, AI and such like, the reach of a man with all of these assets at his disposal is global.

If such a man is a malignant narcissist with dementia, then the whole world is in trouble.

If we survive this it will only be by chance. “This” not just being this particular presidency but any potential situation in the future where massive power is placed (or taken) into the hands of someone unfit to wield it responsibly. Not just in America. Anywhere.

Being an atheist I don’t look to a higher supernatural power to look after us or to have everything set out in one great overarching plan. We’re only here because we’ve beaten the odds… so far. Some day our luck may well run out.

Walter.

3 Likes
7

Our luck is certainly going to run out. 99% of all species that have ever existed have gone extinct. Homo sapiens do not get a pass. We do seem uniquely poised to be the architects of our extinction.

Trump is not something new. He’s not even the worst to bring their malignant narcissism into a position of power. He just joined this list:

  • Adolf Hitler (Germany)
  • Joseph Stalin (Soviet Union)
  • Mao Zedong (China)
  • Pol Pot (Cambodia)
  • Saddam Hussein (Iraq)
  • Idi Amin (Uganda)
  • Kim Il-sung (North Korea)
  • Muammar Gaddafi (Libya)
  • Leopold II (Belgium/Congo)
  • Caligula (Rome)

With the exception of the Soviet Union and Rome, all of these countries are still here. They merely transitioned after the trauma of these leaders. Leaders like this are typically found at the bridge of a transition within a society, nation or world order.

Trump merely signals the transition of the United States from the dominant uni-power, that survived the bi-polar world order of the 20th century, to just another entity within an emerging multi-polar world order.

Trump is the symptom, not the disease. He is the accelerant thrown on a fire that was already burning.

2 Likes
8

Depends on how you look at it. Kim Il-Sung just started the era of total suppression, and his son Kim Jong-Il and grandson Kim Jong-Un have perfected the isolationism and suppression going on there. Besides, Kim Il-Sung is still president in North Korea, even though he is dead. So the Kim dynasty is still alive and kicking. You can also argue that the Soviet Union and its heir, Russia, just had a period of less suppression from the death of Stalin until the modern day suppression of Vladimir Putin.

1 Like
9

I think the fossil fuel industry and to an extent all the oligarchs have lost control of Trump. With his latest actions probably leading to sustained $200/barrel pricing for crude, it will only accelerate a trend that has already ignited towards rather than away from renewables (it happened on a smaller scale during the pandemic, but this is likely going to be longer lasting than the pandemic, even if it doesn’t represent a never-ending new reality). He’s priced fossil fuels out of the market.

Of course that’s needed for more than driving cars around and keeping the lights on, and the industrial uses of petro-products may sustain the extraction of the final, impure, costlier to refine crude. But I doubt that fossil fuel interests were thinking that far ahead, or that strategically. For them, this is an unforced error on multiple levels, not just business but in public perception / tolerance.

As to whether Trump represents some sort of transition to a more authoritarian state on a sustained basis or not, depends on whether the Dems succeed in “going back to brunch” or that they actually govern and lead, in some game-changing, FDR-style sense. That could go either way, or they could temporarily play-act at being progressive until people calm down, too.

On balance I think there are a lot of blessings in disguise with this regime. The aforementioned rejection of fossil fuels and taking refuge in renewables, if for no other reason than that Trump has inadvertently made them decisively cheaper, and sunlight does not pass through some geographic choke-point that someone can exploit to create artificial scarcity and cost. The stripping off of the mask over the American id, so that perhaps we’ll quit hearing people blather, “this is not who we are”, and instead actually acknowledge the lie in that, and thus actually CHANGE. A bunch of other adjacent stuff, like the public sentiment being so strongly against giant data centers and AI.

The reason Trump is failing in a single phrase is that he overplayed his hand. He didn’t have the restraint and discipline to play the long game and ease the country into some version the Handmaid’s Tale. It’s happening in a fast and shocking enough way that his base is rapidly shrinking, even if for the wrong reasons, and we have some hope that we can have, if not exactly a Hungary-style rejection of the corruption and cruelty, then at least a sufficient one and perhaps unprecedented by American standards.

My hope is that the transition we’re talking about here, thanks to Trump’s buffoonish incompetence, is to drop certain foundational lies that things just have to be the way they are and we can’t have nice things. That we can’t provide healthcare because it would weaken the military. That we can’t protect the environment because it would cost fossil fuel jobs. We can’t tax the rich for the benefit of common folks because the rich will flee the country en masse. Horseshit like that.

Or not. We’ll see. But I’m thinking “may you live in interesting times” does not have to entirely be a curse.

10

Ah yes, but how damage will such a malignant narcissist with ongoing dementia do before he goes?

Back in 1957 we had a Prime Minister (Anthony Eden) who’s mental health was deteriorating badly, albeit in a radically different way to Trump’s. At that time there existed the checks and balances of power within the British political system to remove an unfit leader from office before they could do too much damage.

But I’m a stranger to the internal workings of American politics.

What I worry about is, that in his power-hungry and paranoic way, Trump may have stripped away the necessary checks and balances that should exist to remove an mentally unfit leader from office. So, has this happened? Or are there still robust systems of removal in place that can act if the need arises?

I ask because the elimination of anything that might threaten their future hold on power is a big part of the playbook of the ‘President’s for Life’ running other nations with an iron grip.

Those are my two worries. The extent of the damage The Donald will cause and what, if anything, exists that can legally remove him from office.

I’m almost dreading the responses I could get to this but I’m going to ask anyway.

Thank you,

Walter.

11

As seen from the outside, it seems that Trump and his sycophants have now rigged the system so that no matter how incompetent, demented Trump gets, and no matter how recklessly and dangerously he leads the country, he will be protected by his bootlickers or people that see their chance to participate in a power grab. It is just not in their interest to remove him from power, as that means they lose power, and risk criminial persecution. And they are in a situation where what’s done cannot be undone.

12

More than you can imagine. Trump has no bottom to the depths he will sink and no sense of consequence for his actions. It’s all about narcissistic supply. In his mind, he is more important than Jesus…and anyone not onboard with that can go fuck themselves.

The dementia acts as a distiller in that it hones his personality down to the most rehearsed parts. The “act” is all that survives as the higher functions turn to Jello.

And yes, Virginia, the Republicans have rigged the system, removed the guard rails and enabled all of this nonsense. They are focused on gaining and maintaining power and control and will litigate the shit out of anything that challenges that premise.

The only plan was to tilt the playing field for elites. Joe six pack merely needs to vote, buy a red hat and learn the chants and handshakes…the fact that he is likely to feel the pain for this agenda is immaterial…he just needs to find a home for his grievances and someone to blame for his lack of success and the Republican gravy train keeps rolling.

If you have ever been on a school playground as a child you already understand American politics. It’s two wolves and a sheep deciding on what to have for lunch. The American people are merely the garnish and condiments.

There are three ways to remove a sitting President in the United States:

Impeachment: This requires an “indictment” in the House of Representatives for “high crimes and misdemeanors”. This transfers the process to a “trial” in the Senate, presided over the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. It requires 67 votes of the 100 member Senate to convict and remove.

The reality is that Democrats can impeach Trump all day, but my hair will come back before they get 67 votes to convict and remove in the Senate.

25th Amendment to the Constitution, Section 4: This one requires a “majority” of Trump’s Cabinet and the Vice President to declare the President unfit to discharge his duties. Trump can still contest this action, which pushes it back to Congress. In order for the action to stand, a 2/3 majority vote in both Houses is required.

Section 4 has never been implemented. It will not be effective removing Trump, unless there is a serious and obvious medical issue. Think “coma”.

Death: This one is self-explanatory.

Honestly, all of this hand wringing, wailing and gnashing of teeth is pointless. The damage is already done. The physical majority of voting Americans signed on to this shit willingly. The divisions in American society have already poisoned the well. We are all in a car with no brakes speeding for a wall…and all we can do is argue about who has the front seat.

Trump is here until 2029, or up to the point his liability exceeds his utility to the elites. Sorry, Walter, but, as the saying goes over here, you can wish in one and crap in the other…see which one fills up first…

13

I would only add that no “rigging” has occurred. Those remedies have always existed, as has the ability of Congress to reign in the executive by controlling spending. ALL that is happening is that the GOP has decided to sit on its hands and not even pretend to do its job.

Far too much of the US system depended on a predominance of people of good will and intent. One can, I suppose, argue that this is all that makes ANY political system work, to whatever extent that it does. But it seems to me that a few well-placed new laws with drop dead unambiguous automatic triggers should exist that don’t. There’s clearly not enough deterrence, sort of like the death penalty nonsense – to whatever extent a murderer actually even bothers to ask themselves, hm, maybe I shouldn’t do this or they’ll put me down, they aren’t going to do it if it takes decades of appeals and statistically just isn’t likely. Justice has to be unambiguous and swift where it’s actually needed.

Similarly if the opposition regains the majority, they could (and might) just decide to “move on” and not prosecute anyone involved in the corruption and graft, not expel them from Congress, etc. Taking the high road often leads to the low road.

To c1’s point about Trump being removed when he exeeds his utility to the elites, I return to my point that the elites have lost control of the situation. They are paralyzed to act because removing Trump may lead to their comeuppance, yet if they DID act, it would require way too many of them to agree to do the deed and right now the corruption sustains them … they are all sociopaths and don’t care and probably rationalize that they will come out of this with more wealth and power than any other way. But it’s a dangerous game that could well lead to nuclear war and other pleasantries.

Maybe what Europe should do is wait for our military to degrade itself far enough that they can simply come in and haul Trump to the Hague themselves. But that’s also a wet dream. I don’t see it happening. It’s too risky, and there are too many bad actors everywhere who just want the world to burn on some level.

1 Like
14

Trump v. United States (2024)

The elites never had control of Trump. It was always illusionary. See Franz von Papen for reference. It was a transactional agreement from 2016 forward. They provided funding for his election and get out of jail free cards, while he gave them tax breaks and deregulation.

All of his antics and ravings are a cost of doing business. They can accept his short term costs in order to secure a long term benefit. He is a sunk cost until he becomes a tangible liability for elites. At present, he is just the crazy uncle you tolerate at holiday gatherings.

Europe should be doing what the Chinese have been doing…shed as much American debt as possible. It won’t be Trump that brings America down, it will be the reckless tendency to build a system that enshrines the creation and servicing of debt as a prime directive.

I would argue that the faith based devotion of Republicans to Trump is merely the other side of the coin Democrats cling to in the belief that stopping Trump ends the decline. Both delusions ignore the fact that the end has been coming since 1991. Without the USSR, America became fat and happy, entitled and unwilling to sacrifice or compromise to ensure the viability of the country or maintain its significance within the world order.

15

Well, it seems that I was right to dread the responses. :slightly_frowning_face:

1 Like
16

Yeah…Visigoths 1, Romans 0

17

The BBC’s security correspondent Frank Gardner has just pointed out something that I hadn’t realized.

China?

:fearful:

1 Like
18

As well as all the countries that rely on the fertilizer that ships through the Straights who may be looking for a friend to escort their shipments…

19

Maybe he is for all intense and purposes.

20

Why do you think he is not simply stripped of power at this point?