"I've seen things"

Ah so scientific methods are wrong and you are right, afraid not. You have stated plainly that science does not use or deal in consensus, you are simply wrong sorry.

My example? I didn’t right it, follow the link, it plainly demonstrates that science values consensus as part of its methods. What journalists, did you just make that part up?

I’ve just re-read the link and no journalists are mentioned, only scientific publications, it seems you lied?

Link please, as I got not one single hit when I Googled what you had written there. It’s not entirely clear what if anything is meant to be a quote from Feynman?

Really? So there is a broad scientific consensus on the shape of the earth, are you claiming that will be discarded tomorrow? That sounds like BS to me sorry, and I seriously doubt Feynman wrote an absolute claim like that without qualifying it, but then you haven’t offered a citation anyone can check rather tellingly.

FYI no one is claiming a consensus alone is used in science to validate ideas, as I sense we are heading for a straw man here, but despite your assertion it clearly is an important part of the methods of science.

Please quote Feynman saying otherwise, and this time provide a link to a citation.

There’s a pretty good article HERE that defines what is meant by scientific consensus, which many people misunderstand and conflate with bare appeals to numbers.

“there is a role for consensus in science. The notion articulated by Crichton and Lovelock that consensus is irrelevant has arisen in response to the modern-day politicization of science. One element of their proclamations does apply, however. As pointed out by astrophysicist and author Ethan Siegel, the existence of a scientific consensus doesn’t mean that the “science is settled.” Consensus is merely the starting point on the way to a full-fledged theory.”

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Scientific consensus is the generally held judgment, position, and opinion of the majority

I’ll go one more round on this Sheldon and then let it be .
Science doesn’t hold Judgments - Positions - Opinions.

There is a shifting of the goal post if ever I saw one.

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I already showed you a link showing this not to be the case, so why you keep repeating this falsehood is unclear? Also your original claim was this:

I have posted a link twice that demonstrates this facile claim is wrong, moving the goal posts won’t help change that. No one ever suggested that science was decided by the majority, only that scientific consensus among those with the relevant expertise was a vital PART of the methods of science.

Straw man…you keep moving the goal posts, but your original claim quoted above “that consensus is irrelevant to science,” is what I disputed. Since it is not irrelevant to science as the link I have twice posted demonstrates, and you have repeatedly ignored? It is a vital part of the methods of science. and science certainly involves drawing conclusions based on the evidence, and the method would also at some point incvolve opinions, both evidenced and unevidenced.

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More than once in fact.

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I think he shifted stadiums, cities and game.

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Didn’t you just claim a position by Feynman? Admittedly you offered no citation, and I couldn’t link what you’d written with Feynman, but it was definitely an opinion / position?

In fact accepting something as true is taking a position, and holding an opinion. and when nearly all experts in a field of study agree / hold the same position / opinion based on the evidence, that would be a consensus as well, hmm.

For example there is a global consensus that species evolution is an irrefutable fact based on the overwhelming evidence. Ever heard of project Steve?

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Hahaha…Well until now I had never seen a semantical
Möbius strip…now I have…:roll_eyes:

Edit: round and round she goes, where she stops, nobody knows…

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Ha ha ha ha ha ha ah ah ha hahahahahahahahahahah, Shit… I blew snot all over my keyboard. I hate being sick. But this sure made me feel better… cough, cough

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I forgot about this, pretty hilarious.

“The Scientific Consensus represents the position generally agreed upon at a given time by most scientists specialized in a given field.”

“Scientific consensus is the collective position scientists in a given field have taken, based on their interpretation of the available evidence. For example, the overwhelming majority of doctors say childhood vaccines are safe.”

American Association for the Advancement of Science
“Based on well-established evidence, about 97% of climate scientists have concluded that human-caused climate change is happening.”

Conclusion
a judgement or decision reached by reasoning.

“Einstein concluded that simultaneity is not absolute, or in other words, that simultaneous events as seen by one observer could occur at different times from the perspective of another. It’s not lightspeed that changes, he realized, but time itself that is relative.”

Take three months, maybe Google a few word definitions, wipe the egg off your chops, and then don’t eat for a while, as you are going to have so much humble pie to swallow an empty stomach would be for the best champ…

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Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha … Oh fuck! I pooped my pants! What a fucking moronic statement. That is, by far, the stupidest comment I have heard all year. Do we have a stupid award? 'The Golden Banana of Ignorance." We have a winner!

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That was my favourite part, not even subtle in lying. Maybe he doesn’t understand how hyperlinks work?

He does not understand scientific consensus, and is confusing it with religious consensus. The concept of independent verification has evaded him completely.

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Since it’s become manifestly obvious that this is needed, it’s time to deal with the canards being brought here about the operation of science. I’ll start by making the following observation, namely that “scientific consensus” is shorthand for “postulates that have been determined to be robustly supported by DATA after extensive analysis”. It’s as far removed from the sort of rubber stamping that occurs in the world of mythology fanboy apologetics as it’s possible to be.

Before a postulate is accepted by scientists, it has to be tested, and where possible, tested to destruction. Indeed, a major part of the effort of scientists, is devoted to finding means of falsifying postulates. Those that survive the requisite discoursive artillery barrage, then move on to the next part … the business of peer review.

Again, let’s kill off once and for all, the mendacious canard erected in particular by creationists, that peer review is some sort of “rubber stamping” exercise. It isn’t, and there are two important reasons for this. The first centres upon the fact that scientific journals have reputations to protect, reputations that will be seriously damaged if the editors allow bad science to be published therein. This is multiply so in the case of prestigious world class journals, that gained their reputations by publishing landmark scientific findings that transformed our understanding of the world. Journals in this class will not risk their reputations by letting shoddy work through the gate.

As a corollary, the editors of scientific journals are strongly motivated to select as peer reviewers, properly trained scientists who will be ruthless in the dissection of submissions. Those trained scientists will mark for rejection any paper containing errors of deduction, errors involving incorrect statistical analysis of data, and and failure to establish robust connection between the presented data and the conclusions.

The second reason centres upon the fact that journals have limited space in their print issues, and have to reserve space therein for the best submissions provided. As a corollary, many good papers end up being rejected, particularly by the top-tier journals. Those papers usually have to be submitted either to a second-tier journal, or a journal with a narrow specialist remit, in order to see the light of day. Succeeding in the task of having Nature or Proceedings of the Royal Society of London, for example, publish your work, is a sign that you have done your job properly as a scientist, because your research is considered to be first class. Equivalent American journals are PNAS and Science, and once again, persuading these to look at your paper and deem it worthy of publication means you’ve achieved something special.

But it doesn’t end there.

Even after this process has been completed, there is still scope for someone to discover that you’ve made a mistake, at which point you have to go through all your lab notebooks, and try to find out where you went wrong, in order to supply a correction. Worse still, someone could find a mistake in your paper that leads to the journal retracting the paper. Which means you’ve spent several years thinking you’ve achieved something, only for it to come crashing down about your head.

Scientific publishing is a ruthless business, because ensuring that genuine scientific fact makes it to the fore is nowadays a matter of life and death, particularly in medical science, but sometimes in other disciplines too. For example, in materials chemistry, if you find a new material suitable for use in a high capacity battery, but your experiments fail to detect a critical failure mode of that material resulting in fire or explosion, that’s going to result in catastrophe if your material finds its way into a commercial airliner and launches into its death spiral at 35,000 feet.

While we’re on the subject of scientific integrity and the need to be careful and diligent with ideas, let’s nail on the head once and for all, the tiresome trope that’s doing the rounds of Farcebook and other “social media” platforms, whose governing bodies really should be doing more to stamp out. This is the “scientists only produce what they’re paid to” garbage that’s polluting discourse to a corrosive event.

Quite simply, scientists can’t magic results into existence, if the scientists themselves don’t know how their experiments are going to behave beforehand. Likewise, any fraud in this vein will be caught pretty quicky by other scientists whose suspicions are aroused by results that are just a bit too good or too convenient to be true. That’s before institutional ethics committees start weighing in on the matter. Indeed, scientists who perpetrated actual fraud not only had their careers totally destroyed in the past, but some ended up serving prison sentences. I’m also reminded of at least one scientist whose disgrace in this matter led to him committing suicide. This is not a place the sensible wish to visit.

So, let’s dump the mendacious apologetic fabrications on this matter into the bin once and for all, shall we?

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I would have said it exactly like that if I had the background and vocabulary. LOL

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Now this straw man is hilarious, after his argumentum ad populum fallacy about most people holding unevidenced belief in the transcendent being evidence it’s true. No one is claiming science is infallible, it’s theist alone who claim to have immutable truths, not science. “Many examples” is suitably vague, care to take a stab at what percentage of article in peer reviewed scientific publications are later falsified and retracted? I’d bet it is a miniscule percentage. Also note that unlike religions which cling to errant nonsense long after it has been falsified, the methods of science can and do improve over time, and no scientific idea, even an irrefutable fact, is ever considered immutable, all scientific ideas remain tentative in the light of new evidence, and to those who grasp the significance the ability to admit an error and amend belief is one of science’s greatest strengths, and the blinkered adherence to errant nonsense is one of religion’s biggest weaknesses.

Now pay attention @Sid the difference between a scientific consensus, and your irrational bare appeal to numbers is the scientific evidence and the process, this was even explained a few posts back, I’ll quote it for you as you have trouble grasping debate, because you are so blinkered in favour of one belief.

Note the repetition of your claim came after that citation that you dishonestly ignored. Now if a consensus is irrelevant to science, why do scientists seek scholarly communication at conferences, and why do they refer to these as consensus conferences? Also if a consensus is irrelevant to science, then why do scientists bother trying to replicate the results from other people’s research, and why bother with peer review?

I’d forgotten how hilariously idiotic some of his claims were.

Now here it comes, the difference between @Sid’s bare appeal to numbers and a scientific consensus is that in science it is based on objective evidence, that is why they try to replicate results, because if there is subjective bias it will be exposed when others repeat the experiments and can’t replicate the result. Damn you’re funny, what did you think that science just accepts what scientists tell them without checking? Maybe consensus is another word you don’t understand?

Lets try this, I wonder if @Sid has ever heard of Project Steve?

National Centre for Science Education

So to poke fun at creationist lies that evolution is a “scientific theory in crisis” the NCSE has created a list of scientists who form a “consensus” by accepting the fact of species evolution, but who all have the first name Steve.

Now as i am aware of your fondness for creating mendacious straw man fallacies, I will preempt that, as no one is claiming that science relies SOLELY on consensus, only that consensus forms a vital part of the methods of science, in direct contradiction of your false claim. Well it would have to, otherwise all you’d have is anecdotal claims, like religions. It’s only when the data and facts are shared, and then subjected to continuous critical scrutiny such as happens in peer review that the claims are established as objectively valid.

You are funny @Sid, see you in three months.

Add, even more importantly (and I’ll just add to what @Calilasseia so elegantly mentioned), the whole purpose of having your work published is to eventually compile all of the results into a text book. Text books are actually what Science is about. How are students going to master “Biology” without a biology textbook? Not to mention, they generate a lot of revenue for the Universities.