Is there finally an argument for the existence of God?

[Sheldon]

@Quim

By the time I got to this point, that was the third time you had implied not having a contrary explanation

Subjective experience is an observation, not a theory. It is, in fact, the foundation of any potential evidence we can gather about anything, as it relies on our ability to experience it. I’m uncertain whether there is a need to seek counterarguments against an observed fact.

That doesn’t address your use of an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy? Making your argument for a deity irrational by definition. Also can you use the quote function so we know who you’ve responded to, and can link to the original post (just highlight any text and a quote icon appears).

@Quim

atheists must develop theories

Atheism is the lack or absence of a belief, thus the assertion that atheists need do something in order to disbelieve the claim a deity exists is an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy. As I said, this fallacy in informal logic litters religious apologetics. FWIW I don’t believe it is possible to argue anything into existence without any objective evidnece, but I will try and keep an open mind.

Can you demonstrate any objective evidence for any deity? If not then I must withhold belief.

@Quim

Proving the existence of God in my argument is as easy as proving that subjective experience can exist outside of our brain.

Do you mean that what we experience exists outside of our brains, rather being a construct of it? Only this is not always true, Spiderman exists in my brain, but does not exist in objective reality. The way we determine the difference is by demonstrating objective evidence. Also not all experiences are subjective, some are entirely subjective and others supported by sufficient objective evidence. I am inclined to believe the latter and disbelieve the former.

@Quim

If our own subjective experience could be evidence of a superior consciousness,

You will need to demonstrate that, not simply assert it. FYI personal experience ALONE is woefully unreliable, and I would not accept this alone as evidence generally speaking, least of all for the most extraordinary of claims like a deity existing or anything supernatural.

@Quim

Nonetheless, I aim to establish a logical framework that can reasonably support the existence of a higher consciousness. Specifically, I am suggesting that the concept of a GOD, as a subjective experience, is plausible based on our current understanding.

All I see are unevidenced assertions so far, and your argument already violated a basic principle of logic by using a known logical fallacy.

@Quim

I did not claim that God creates consciousness;

Ok, but you may as well be telling me unicorns didn’t create consciousness for all the meaning I can derive from that assertion. Our brains evolved, and all the objective evidence demonstrates that consciousness is an emergent property of our brains, and there is no objective evidence that our consciousness can survive the physical death of our brains.

@Quim

I am suggesting that the concept of a GOD, as a subjective experience, is plausible based on our current understanding.

Yes I read that claim, but I see no objective evidence to support it.

@Quim

explaining consciousness (particularly subjective experience), we may uncover a potential explanation for the existence of a superior consciousness.

Again you seem to be reeling off unevidenced assertions, to what end?

@Quim

What’s more all the objective evidence suggests consciousness is an emergent property of the human brain, and that it evolved.

Exactly,

Then adding an unevidenced deity to explain it’s existence is unnecessary, and doing so violates Occam’s razor.

[Kevin_Levites]

Is Quim trying to claim that the existence of God can be implied by the existence of consciousness?

I don’t buy into this argument, but I can understand where it comes from.

When I ponder my own consciousness, I sometimes feel like my body is a kind of sock hand puppet that my consciousness wears like a glove.

I imagine that this is why people believe in the soul.

So, I can’t see my own back without a mirror, as I can feel it when I’m lying down. I think that asking people to abandon the ldea of a soul is hard for them if they perceive their own consciousness like I do.

Yet feeling something doesn’t make it true.

The earth seems flat, and it seems like we’re at the center of the Universe . . . yet neither of these things is true.

We may feel like we have a soul (and, therefore, God), but this doesn’t mean that it exists.

[Quim]

My argument focuses on the idea that you, as a material entity or process, possess a subjective experience. Belief in God essentially attributes this subjective experience to a higher level. It’s important to note that I’m not referring to brain activity, which is merely a physical process, but rather the experience associated with it.

If the physical processes within you can generate subjective experience, why couldn’t the universe itself?

This is essentially the core of my argument. The issue at hand is that no property, law, or substance in current physics predicts or explains the existence of subjective experience. Furthermore, science cannot measure or study subjective experience directly. We simply do not know if a stone possesses a rudimentary form of subjective experience or not.

Therefore, the most plausible explanation is that subjective experience could exist in everything, including the universe itself. Assuming this is more valid than assuming that only our specific physical processes give rise to it. After all, the chemical reactions and electrical currents occurring in our brains also occur throughout the entire universe.

There are additional reasons to support this argument, but this serves as a solid starting point.

[Sheldon]

@Quim

My argument focuses on the idea that you, as a material entity or process, possess a subjective experience.

Again, how subjective our personal experience is, will depend on how much objective evidence we can demonstrate to support it.

@Quim

Belief in God essentially attributes this subjective experience to a higher level.

Without any objective evidence to support it, thus I can no more believe this than claims people make to have been rescued from the sea by a mermaid.

@Quim

If the physical processes within you can generate subjective experience, why couldn’t the universe itself?

It would need to be sentient, and there is no objective evidence that the universe is sentient. So unless you can demonstrate sufficient objective evidence that the universe is sentient, then that’s a reason to disbelieve the universe can experience anything.

I also don’t see how would the universe **hypothetically **perceiving anything is evidence for any deity?

@Quim

The issue at hand is that no property, law, or substance in current physics predicts or explains the existence of subjective experience.

Issue for whom, and why is this an issue?

@Quim

Furthermore, science cannot measure or study subjective experience directly.

It can test whether what we perceive is in accordance with reality.

@Quim

Furthermore, science cannot measure or study subjective experience directly…Therefore, the most plausible explanation is that subjective experience could exist in everything, including the universe itself.

Therefore? Oh I think not, you have simply leaped to an unevidenced assumption based on on an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy.

@Quim

Assuming this is more valid than assuming that only our specific physical processes give rise to it.

No it isn’t, we have objective for the latter, and none for your assumption here?

@Quim

There are additional reasons to support this argument, but this serves as a solid starting point.

I don’t agree, since this is based on a logical fallacy, and is littered with unevidenced assumptions.

Now, are you ready to answer my question:

Can you demonstrate any objective evidence for any deity, or that a deity is even possible?

So far you haven’t even accurately defined which deity you believe to be real.

[Calilasseia]

@Quim …

Whenever I see a post containing declarations such as “Atheists believe …” or “Atheists must …” etc., I know I’m dealing with someone engaging in thoughtless presupposition.

Atheists aren’t “required” to do anything other than be suspicious of unsupported mythology fanboy assertions. Because that, at bottom, is what atheism IS - suspicion of unsupported mythology fanboy assertions.

The only people who are actually required to devise hypotheses are research scientists, because, wait for it, this is an essential part of being one.

Do learn to apply some rigour here.

[Quim]

@Calilasseia

Atheists aren’t “required” to do anything other…

The subjective experience is an objective phenomenon, not merely a subjective opinion. As an atheist, if you do not explore and provide explanations for evident facts that could potentially challenge your beliefs, then you are simply accepting them in an arbitrary manner. While this is perfectly acceptable, it may not be considered reasonable.

Please take a look at David Chalmers’ concept of philosophical zombies.

[Sheldon]

@Quim

As an atheist, if you do not explore and provide explanations for evident facts that could potentially challenge your beliefs,

Atheism is not a belief, it is the lack or absence of belief. As @Calilasseia has correctly pointed out, an atheist need do nothing, since atheism is not a claim, nor need it involve any.

@Quim

Please take a look at David Chalmers’ concept of philosophical zombies.

You know he’s an atheist right? Beyond that you take a look at it, and then explain carefully what relevance it has to your claims, we’re not doing your research for you.

Now I have asked multiple times:

Can you demonstrate any objective evidence for any deity, or that a deity is even possible?

You seem to be dodging this question for some reason?

[Quim]

@Sheldon

Again, how subjective our personal experience is, will depend on how much objective evidence we can demonstrate to support it.

If you examine the concept of a philosophical zombie (as proposed by David Chalmers), you will likely observe that there is no discernible physical distinction between an individual with subjective experience and a zombie lacking any subjective experience. Both would exhibit identical brain activity and reactions, but only one would possess subjective experience.
The issue at hand is not merely a misconception regarding brain activity.

@Sheldon

there is no objective evidence that the universe is sentient

Well, the problem runs deeper. There is no objective evidence to support the notion that you or anyone else is experiencing any subjective experience.

@Sheldon

Issue for whom, and why is this an issue?

Currently, this problem poses a significant challenge for materialism. For instance, Bertrand Russell, a well-known atheist, put forward the concept of Russellian monism, stating explicitly that science does not inform us about the nature of matter, but rather its behavior. Hence, the problem is undoubtedly legitimate.

[Quim]

@Sheldon

You know he’s an atheist right?

Heisenberg was a believer, but his belief does not imply that anyone studying quantum physics is also a believer. The same can be said of Chalmers.

@Sheldon

it is the lack or absence of belief

It does not matter whether it is belief or disbelief; both should be grounded in an analysis of the facts, and subjective experience constitutes a factual aspect.

[Sheldon]

@Quim

@Sheldon

there is no objective evidence that the universe is sentient

Well, the problem runs deeper.

No it doesn’t, since you made the claim that the universe can experience things, and can’t evidence it, it is meaningless.

quod grātīs asseritur, grātīs negātur

cam you demsontrate any objective evidence for any deity?

The fact you keep dodging this question presents a rather obvious inference, well two in fact.

1. Which deity are you claiming is real?
   2, What objective evidence can you demonstrate that this deity exists outside of your imagination?

@Quim

Currently, this problem poses a significant challenge for materialism.

It is a fact that the material physical universe exists, and that natural phenomena exist, if you’re going to add unevidenced deities and inexplicable magic, without even attempting to provide any objective evidence then the problem is all yours, as I am not going to believe you. I need not go as far as to claim only the material exists, I can simply observe that it is all we have objective evidence for.

You are again trying to reverse the burden of proof, and again using an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy to do so, it remains an irrational argument.

[CyberLN]

@Quim

Specifically, I am suggesting that the concept of a GOD, as a subjective experience, is plausible based on our current understanding

Coming late to this party, please forgive me if this has already been covered.

Of course the concept of god(s) can be (is) a subjective experience! One not everybody shares. The concept is absolutely plausible, otherwise there would not be folks identifying as theist.

@Quim

I stated that by explaining consciousness (particularly subjective experience), we may uncover a potential explanation for the existence of a superior consciousness.

I think this is ca ca.

@Quim

atheists must develop theories that either propose matter can generate subjective experiences

Why? You say god(s) exist. I say I don’t believe you. Beyond that, I have no obligation to provide anything. If you want me to believe you, the ball is in your court, not mine.

@Quim

If the physical processes within you can generate subjective experience, why couldn’t the universe itself?

Using that line of thinking, why couldn’t ice generate subjective thinking?

@Quim

The issue at hand is that no property, law, or substance in current physics predicts or explains the existence of subjective experience.

You have, on several occasions I’ve noticed, used the word “current”. What happens to your assertions once time has passed and “current” has grown to include new information?

@Quim

the most plausible explanation

Please provide the actual arithmetic you used to arrive at the quantitative announcement.

[Nyarlathotep]

@Quim

no property, law, or substance in current physics predicts or explains the existence of subjective experience.

Physics doesn’t explain anything, You have a common but fundamental misunderstanding of what physics even is.

[Whitefire13]

@Quim

As an atheist, if you do not explore and provide explanations for evident facts that could potentially challenge your beliefs, then you are simply accepting them in an arbitrary manner.

We’d hate to do that!

Btw and welcome @Quim

As an atheist, I withhold belief until sufficient demonstrable evidence is provided. Picking an unevidenced claim and then believing it is not my go to standard.

Explanations are all you’re after? Multiple universes; parallel universes; cyclical universe; simulation theory (we’re not in base reality); alien overlords (Annunaki); “god” died thus this universe (and we’ll eventually recollect back into “god”); we’re a butterfly ‘s dream; we died in 2012; we were created 3 days ago …

I could go on and on. I love mind-candy.

One more - you’re the only conscious being and we’re just all in your head

[Quim]

@CyberLN

If you want me to believe you, the ball is in your court, not mine.

I don’t want you to believe that I’m saying subjective experience exists in humans, who are physical processes. However, it is entirely plausible to assume that it could also exist in other physical processes in the universe. In fact, this assumption is more logical than thinking that only humans have subjective experience for some magical reason.

In short, what I’m suggesting is that the default state of matter is subjective experience, not inert unconsciousness.

@CyberLN

Using that line of thinking, why couldn’t ice generate subjective thinking?

Not subjective thinking, but subjective experience; they are different. Anyway, yes, why not? Of course, it would likely be an incredibly rudimentary subjective experience, but perhaps there is some form of experience.

@CyberLN

What happens to your assertions once time has passed and “current” has grown to include new information?

I use the term “current” because I aim to be specific, and our theories evolve over time. For instance, what was deemed natural in the 19th century is no longer considered natural today due to the advent of quantum physics and relativity. It is likely that what will be regarded as natural a hundred years from now will differ from our current understanding. Therefore, as of now, physics provides no explanation for subjective experience. No theory predicts its emergence, yet it undeniably exists. In my opinion, this poses a significant challenge that cannot be ignored.

@CyberLN

Please provide the actual arithmetic you used to arrive at the quantitative announcement.

Being made of matter, my experience is that of subjective experience, not mere nothingness. Furthermore, I suspect that subjective experience is constantly present, with the issue being that our memory ceases to function during sleep. This line of thought leads me to consider the possibility that the default state of matter is experience rather than unconsciousness.

In fact, assuming that the default state is nothingness is equally valid to assuming subjective experience, but it fails to align with our own experiences.

In any case, there are other intricate problems that reinforce this notion.

[Quim]

@Whitefire13

As an atheist, I withhold belief until sufficient demonstrable evidence is provided. Picking an unevidenced claim and then believing it is not my go to standard.

My point is not necessarily to persuade you to believe something specific. Instead, I am proposing that your assumption regarding the default state of matter as no-experience appears less plausible to me compared to my assumption that the default state of matter is subjective experience. This is because we have direct evidence that matter, including ourselves, can experience things.

All theories and models aiming to elucidate how subjective experience emerges in the brain are equally applicable to the assumption that similar subjective experiences could emerge elsewhere in the universe, including within the universe itself.

[CyberLN]

@Quim

Being made of matter, my experience is that of subjective experience, not mere nothingness. Furthermore, I suspect that subjective experience is constantly present, with the issue being that our memory ceases to function during sleep. This line of thought leads me to consider the possibility that the default state of matter is experience rather than unconsciousness.

In fact, assuming that the default state is nothingness is equally valid to assuming subjective experience, but it fails to align with our own experiences.

This did not provide what I requested.

[CyberLN]

@Quim

However, it is entirely plausible to assume that it could also exist in other physical processes in the universe. In fact, this assumption is more logical than thinking that only humans have subjective experience for some magical reason.

The words you keep forgetting to add to your posts are “I think…”or “it seems to me…” or “I find it…”

You assumption is more logical to you. That may be a fact in your view but it is not universally a fact.

[CyberLN]

@Quim

Therefore, as of now, physics provides no explanation for subjective experience. No theory predicts its emergence, yet it undeniably exists. In my opinion, this poses a significant challenge that cannot be ignored.

All sorts of explanations for all sorts of things are not yet available. Why does that pose a significant challenge to you (note the personalization)? It doesn’t to me as I’m not a physicist. I’ll wait until those experts make them available; doing so without feeling the need to make up pseudo-philosophical explanations

[Quim]

@CyberLN

You assumption is more logical to you.

Firstly, your assumption is equally valid to mine, so it ultimately comes down to personal preference regarding which one to believe.

Secondly, notable atheists such as Bertrand Russell have grappled with this issue and put forth the notion that matter itself is composed of experience. I am not alone in contemplating this problem. I am merely stating the obvious: if a material process can generate subjective experience within us, then in theory, other complex structures of matter could also give rise to subjective experience.

Honestly, I don’t believe it should be as problematic as it may initially seem.

[Sheldon]

@Quim

it is entirely plausible to assume that it could also exist in other physical processes in the universe.

No it isn’t, you’re just making up an unevidenced assumption. this has been pointed out as well, and you just roll on repeating the claim over and over. What does that infer I wonder?

@Quim

In fact, this assumption is more logical

No such thing as “more logical”, something is either in accordance with the principles of logic or it is not.

@Quim

thinking that only humans have subjective experience for some magical reason.

Straw man fallacy, so not logical at all in fact. It’s theists and theism that make appeals to magic btw.

Magic
noun

1. the power of apparently influencing events by using mysterious or supernatural forces.

Can you explain how your deity does all the things you are claiming? Quod erat demonstrandum.

@Quim

In short, what I’m suggesting is that the default state of matter is subjective experience, not inert unconsciousness.

Another meaningless and unevidenced claim.

@Quim

@CyberLN

Using that line of thinking, why couldn’t ice generate subjective thinking?

yes, why not?

Because ice in insentient, as is the universe, and I am becoming more and more inclined to believe this is an elaborate windup, or at least I’m hoping it is.

@Quim

@CyberLN

Please provide the actual arithmetic you used to arrive at the quantitative announcement.

Being made of matter, my experience is that of subjective experience, not mere nothingness. Furthermore, I suspect that subjective experience is constantly present, with the issue being that our memory ceases to function during sleep. This line of thought leads me to consider the possibility that the default state of matter is experience rather than unconsciousness.

In fact, assuming that the default state is nothingness is equally valid to assuming subjective experience, but it fails to align with our own experiences.

In any case, there are other intricate problems that reinforce this notion.

I see no maths there? Just a list of bare unevidenced assertions and assumptions.

@Quim

My point is not necessarily to persuade you to believe something specific.

This bodes well, as you’re offering nothing so far.

@Quim

Instead, I am proposing that your assumption regarding the default state of matter as no-experience appears less plausible to me compared to my assumption that the default state of matter is subjective experience.

I can’t speak for other atheists, but I make no such assumption, I do not however believe your unevidenced assumption that insentient things can experience anything.

@Quim

This is because we have direct evidence that matter, including ourselves, can experience things.

False equivalence fallacy, this is not true of insentient things. Our consciousness is an emergent property of our evolved physical brains.

@Quim

All theories and models aiming to elucidate how subjective experience emerges in the brain are equally applicable to the assumption that similar subjective experiences could emerge elsewhere in the universe, including within the universe itself.

I don’t believe you, and again this is because you are simply making up nonsense.