Is the New Testament made up?

I infer some agency (call it what you like) that has an innate capacity to create from will, intent, desire as opposed to an agency that is governed by laws (as in the physical universe).

That I map this agency to the “God” that appears in scripture is a totally unrelated step, that correspondence came much later for me. Initially I was compelled to admit that what I observe cannot be explained by science (for the reasons given earlier - namely we can’t use laws to explain the presence of laws) so must have HAS to have a different kind of explanation, something beyond our usual mechanistic explanations.

This whole problem for me, began to emerge while studying general relativity. That theory brings together energy, time, space, gravitation, acceleration into a single model where all of these things are formally related to one another - the so called Einstein field equations.

As you might know, Einstein spent the latter decades of his life seeking to incorporate the electromagnetic field into the geometric theory he had for gravitation, but he did not succeed.

When I looked at the geometric model Einstein (eventually, took him over a decade) devised, it has breathtaking beauty and conciseness, the final field equations are incredibly compact yet fully explain a great deal. I began to ask myself why these equations? where did these themselves come from? to what can I attribute as the cause for this:

The little gμν guy represents 16 non-linear partial differential equations (in four variables), represented by g00 thru g33. The form that these take depends on the coordinate system chosen to represent space-time in the region under consideration.

There is basically a profundity to these equations and the compactness of the notation make it look far simpler than it is, but although far from simple it is extremely elegant. (The LHS represents the geometric nature of spacetime and the RHS represents matter/energy).

I reasoned that if we ever did develop a “unified field theory” where all “forces” (in GR force is simply apparent, not a thing in itself unlike with Newton) are in fact just manifestations of a single more fundamental field then would we be able to go further in our understanding?

I began to see the answer as “no” we’d be faced with some profound mathematics that describes reality fully yet all we could do is stare at it, we could not reduce it, it would simply exist and itself be beyond any form of conventional explanation, we can discover laws but never explain there presence.

The very existence of these kinds or profound laws began to occupy me more and more and physics held no hope of an answer, science was useless here, I was dealing with a question that defies conventional materialist analysis. Where did these laws come from? what can possibly explain why there are such laws?

So that is what I inferred, an agency that was able to give rise to such laws and not itself be subject to laws, if not subject to laws, rules then to what can we attribute the elegance and beauty? I reasoned it must be “will” or “intent” or “mind” akin to my own mind but vastly superior.

The option “it just is that way” or “it has always been that way and just is” were unsatisfactory, something else was going on here, the laws were clues, evidence of something incredible.

Equating this to the “God” in the Bible came later.

How do you get to god?

Read my lengthy post above, it is when realizing that science, mechanism, laws is not able to explain the existence of mechanism and laws.

I did read it, i’m curious to why a ‘god’?

Specifics.

I can’t answer you, if you can’t see the answer from that post then we’ll just have to leave it at that, I can’t put it any more clearly.

Its really not that clear Sherlock, i get and understand that not knowing why or not having a scientific explanation as to why laws in nature are laws are not sufficiant for you.

No issues there.

Assigning something else as a causal link to it, again, nothing overly confusing there.

But its how do you get to your particular flavor of god?

And this isnt a trap by the way, im probably one of the few atheists that hasnt had any real indoctrination, my first run in with theism was at senior school in the UK aged 11 or 12 i belive and it instantly struck me as nonsensical and nothing more then a story akin to santa claus.

But i do find it intreguing as well as purplexing how people get to ‘god did it’.

Again, i have no issue with questioning science or even finding it unsatisfying from a philosophical perspective… but getting to a deity is bloody odd.

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Based on what, this needs to be demonstrated not asserted. Might be true is no different to might not be true, might be possible likewise is no different to might not be possible.

No that’s not true, hard atheism is the belief a deity does not exist, not believing a deity is possible is not the same as believing a deity is impossible, again multiple posters here have tried to make you understand this error.

Lets take another stab at it:

If I don’t know whether something is possible or not, then I won’t believe someone who says it is possible, and I won’t believe someone who says it is impossible. I would be an agnostic and still disbelieve the claim.

It didn’t trouble you that Einstein himself did not believe in any deity? I mean how are you looking at his work and coming to a deity when he did not? It makes no difference to my atheism of course, but I am curious you don’t see any problem there?

I hate to say it, but that is a textbook argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy again.

He is asking how you went from something else going on (1), to god. (2) Something else does not infer a deity.

An inconsistent testimony is unreliable by definition. If you’re having trouble with concepts this elementary, it’s no wonder you’re a mythology fanboy.

Meanwhile, on a different topic:

Except that oops, there are physicists now who don’t agree with this.

But you decided that pre-scientific mythology scribbled by people who were too stupid to count correctly the number of legs that an insect possesses, wasn’t useless? This becomes more hilarious with each new sentence of yours.

No, you were simply dealing with a problem that was too hard for you. Whereas there are actual tenured physicists for whom this isn’t too hard.

And you chose “a cartoon magic man from a pre-scientific mythology”. Laughable.

Again, actual tenured physicists are working on a better answer.

Ok, I accept your reasoning* up until now.

Please explain these two items. You have so far described a formless “will” very much akin to the jewish “Logos” as put forward by Philo (originally a concept from Aristotle) and adopted in a garbled form by later gnostic writers such as the authors of the texts that we call “John”.

How do you get from a formless invisible “will” to a specific godofchoice such as the Jhwh/Jesus of the bible?

*With reservations, I can see the steps.

I also have to admit i take issue when on rare occasion theist will push the notion of a will, desire, creator, intelligent designer …etc…

They’re all without fail, human traits or traits found within humanity.

Again, nothing special comes from this position, if anything to me, its sloppy and lazy.

The whole laws can’t explain themselves thing, apart from being a very clear argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy, seemed to be reminiscent of the old “laws need a law giver” line we have all seen.

It’s also true that this argument for the beauty and elegance of those laws being inexplicable without a deity, has been done using art, music, architecture etc etc…Human beings are capable of creating things that we see great beauty in or find emotionally moving, that is an objective fact, no need to be seduced by the numinous, and that takes nothing away from the beauty either.

Very well.

I was raised irreligiously, had access to a small library at home and ended up loving books. I was always in one of several local libraries, this one in Liverpool was by far my favorite, I’d spend hours and hours in there during the late 70s and early 80s, this library was the only place I could get access to very specialized books on mathematics and physics, they had some real classics stuff you’d just never see in a bookshop and I was able to learn a lot but it was a struggle at times.

My grandfather had been a detective inspector in Hong Kong before WW2 but died before I was born, my father left when I was like two and I was raised by mother and grandmother thereafter.

So by the time I was like 10 or 11 I’d imagine I was a “strong atheist” had no time for stupidity, no time for Bibles and dumb churches and just dismissed the entire sham and focused on science and engineering and electronics.

So like you no indoctrination, no religion in the family, no church services or any such claptrap, that’s my background briefly.

In brief the claim “God did it” maps to “a thinking agency did it” and when I was around 24 or so I had the difficulty I explained above, I realized there was a hard barrier to our knowledge and that science has limited explanatory capacity, there were questions that could not have a scientific answer - even in principle - UNLESS we are willing to consider infinite regress but that begs the question - is that even a scientific explanation. Questions like “to what can we attribute the existence of laws” and so on.

I then realized that these are entirely legitimate questions about the natural world and fall within the realm of philosophy not science and so I began to read philosophy, not a great deal but enough for me to begin to realize I’d been naive and had “bet the farm” on science. I began to frame a more solid view of things and actively struggled to de-emphasize science. I’d been looking through the spectacles of materialism all my life without realizing it, I’d subliminally adopted certain philosophical beliefs without consciously realizing it and had elevated “science” to the status of defining my reality, this was a mistake, a philosophical mistake.

Once I was able to admit this to myself and admit we are dealing with profound mysteries, beyond scientific inquiry, I was able to see the claim “God did it” as a legitimate possibility, an intelligent agency not laws, a will not mechanism is a totally reasonable hypothesis.

I then recognized that if “God” was truly a stupid silly explanation then we’d not see the huge historic works about this, many leading philosophers and theologians were educated people and if you read their work they are dealing with the same question I was and these intelligent, educated people did not write garbage.

These are profound questions and many scholars over the centuries knew full well that materialism cannot answer important questions, if we do really want answers we must move on, move on from materialism, if we want to live in a cozy comfortable fairy tale then of course we can dismiss all this and put our trust in science and get on with our lives and lie to ourselves.

So all I can say is that “God did it” is a hypothesis and should be at least seriously considered, dispassionately with an open mind rather than rejected because of “religion” and all of the stupidity we see there, this was not and is not about religion for me, it has nothing to do with religion.

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Look son, by all means disagree but stop the rude brash know-all attitude along with the insults, if you cannot communicate with me as you would a co-worker with whom you might disagree then we’re done.

You’d never dare say “If you’re having trouble with concepts this elementary” to a coworker and I hope you’d never say it to a subordinate as you’d make a miserable manager.

Tell me, why say “mythology fanboy”? is it because without being rude and disparaging you have no case? could that be it? that confined to logic and dispassionate reasoning you’d be stuck?

If you really want me to consider what you say and respond stop talking to me like some dunce.

Very well. That was a different story. Once I was OK with the idea a “god did it”, as a rational idea anyway, I naturally began to perceive things I’d heard in a different way. Ordinarily anything to do with bibles and such claptrap was make my eyes glaze over.

But now, I was able to ponder some of these with slightly less prejudice, for example “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” appeared different, afresh, I was no longer perceiving this through my science filter, I was totally decoupled from a specific philosophy other than “be honest with myself and go where the information leads you”.

I then did look at other popular theologies like Islam and Judaism and several others like Buddhism and so on. I was able to read introductions to these and gradually get a view of the core philosophy of each.

Next I began to look at how each of these made claims about the universe, what claims did they make, were they meaningful? were they consistent with what I understood and so on.

This took years and was a very gradual slow change of attitude within me.

Later I found that the bible (leaving aside all of the usual criticisms for now) offered a deeper insight into reality, was littered with profound claims that were so bold they had to be considered, did I expect some nice neat pat answer to my questions or was I prepared to adjust, reset my worldview to try and see things afresh.

And you did not find the same claims in Buddhism or Zoroastrianism for instance?
Or are you specifically talking about the claims in the modern canon of the NT?

At what point did you decide that some claims had to be true and some rejected?
Which ones?

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But that can - at least in principle - be reconciled by this:

“Let us create man in our image after our likeness”

That says very clearly we have traits that God also has, that in fact we have those traits because God willed it, we too have a will because we get that from God. Couple that with the fact that Jesus - for the first time - explained parables, how he and scripture before him, had used parables and these parables often reveal a duality, they have a physical interpretation and also a spiritual interpretation. Being created “in God’s image” is speaking about spiritual traits.

There are philosophers that regard “will” as a fundamental aspect of reality, that “will” is in fact a bedrock upon which the universe is built, you can read these yourself. We tend to think of “will” as a behavior of a physical system, something that arises from material processes but that is nothing more than conjecture, reasonable but conjecture.

No, the profundity of what’s present i scripture is beyond any other historic literature I could find, in my opinion anyway. Yes the NT contains some material that is unhinted at in the OT.

My current position is that nothing really needs to be rejected, it is a matter of interpretation. Certain interpretations can be rejected and that’s the reason I am not associated with any specific Christian denomination or organization, I do not interpret things as they do and refuse to adopt an interpretation that doesn’t make sense to me.

So, in your interpretation was the resurrection “spiritural” or an actual physical resurrection?

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I don’t think that reconciles it at all, more confirms a personal bias of that person.
As I’ve stated before, we have no way of even proving that god(s) has ever influenced scriptures, let alone interacted withthe natural world.

Furthermore, surely if we are in gods likeness, this would give god physical properties and this be part of the material world.

Personally the only concept that I could even remotely consider being remotely plausible would be the complete opposite.

No will, no desire, barely aware of life forms, no interest in them etc…

Anything else is convoluted and complicated and all smacks again of personal bias.

Personally, I feel humans try to asign far more importance to ourselves then we deserve as a species.
We are no more important then any other living creature.

We cannot even definitively prove the charachter Jesus exists, i’d be open to considering their was a historical person with his name but anything attributed to him is essentially hearsay.

Id be interested in reading that and may do at some point, again though I feel as humans, even philosophers are likely privileging their own bias of what they know in order to explain things we dont know and likely cant know.

Its a reasonable postulation, but thats all it is.

When / why did you make the step into having and acting on a desire to convince strangers who identify as atheists that their way of thinking is, how did you say it, vacuous?

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