Is the existence of God nothing more than a myth?

[CyberLN]

@Walter

The former was a staunch Protestant

Elizabeth 1 was a moderate rather than a staunch Protestant.

[mordant]

@Walter

I have seen the awful testimonies of Christians who suffered with scrupulosity issues, OCD’s, depression, anxiety and panic attacks, all down the pressure they felt from their church, their peers and most of all from God, to stop being the wicked and sinful people they know that they really are.

While this authoritarian religious style can certainly cause anxiety, I tend to think it is more that the style selects for / attracts the anxious and vulnerable. If the whole value proposition is that the belief system “saves” you – basically from yourself and/or the consequences of your personal inadequacies – for that to appeal to you, you need to already have some combination of anxiety, inferiority / guilt complex, and obsessive thinking.

My impression was that a very significant percentage of my fellow fundamentalists fit this description, and the rest were a product of learned helplessness caused by from-the-cradle indoctrination. I fit into the latter category but lacking anxious or OCD tendencies, I found it relatively easy to exit the faith. But I knew.others who suffered, as you say, “excruciatingly”.

[Stevil]

@Walter

The negative aspect manifests itself in thoughts and feelings of guilt and shame when a Christian dwells on the sins they commit on a daily basis.

But, don’t they believe that Jesus died for their sins?
Doesn’t that mean that all is forgiven? even for the sins they haven’t yet committed?

I thought for them, they strive to be Christ-like, but it is in their fallen nature to be sinful- so, oh well, whoops, couldn’t help it, Anyway, praise be to Jesus, he died for us so, onward and upward…

He’s basically their get out of jail free card that they can keep using.

So everytime they do something a little naughty, or even natural, like feel attraction to someone, they remind themselves of Jesus’ 'sacrifice, and feel grateful that he’s got their back. It’s a trap, feel guilty for displeasing god/jesus, but then feel thankful because god/jesus died for a long week-end for you displeasing him.

[Walter]

Corrected. 20 whatevers.

[mordant]

@Stevil

I thought for them, they strive to be Christ-like, but it is in their fallen nature to be sinful- so, oh well, whoops, couldn’t help it

Evangelicals have to expend a lot of energy to expain (to themselves much less to others) the difference between salvation (being forgiven) and sanctification (being progressively “set apart” for god, that is, in practice, being less sinful and more righteous). It never made sense to me that I was supposedly “a new creature in Jesus” and yet had a “sin nature”.

In the end, we were reduced to babbling about “positional truth” – what was true spiritually vs in reality. The spiritual or positional truth was that we were perfected in the eyes of God, but this would never be fully realized in this life.

If we were honest, it wasn’t realized at all in this life.

But honesty was not our strong suit.

[Walter]

I hear you, Stevil.

But please remember that we are talking about emotions here. Intellectually and rationally Christians can know that Jesus died for them but still feel like shit about themselves. If this were not so, why does that link about Religious Trauma Syndrome exist? Why do Christians suffer in this way? Why do they need counselling and therapy? The irrationality of emotions at work.

This, by the way, loops back to the point Sheldon and I were discussing about intelligent people who should be better able to see through the flaws and errors of badly-made apologetic arguments - but don’t. My contention is that they are swayed by their emotions to believe things their rational minds would normally reject. Again, the irrationality of emotions at work.

For what its worth, the Catholics have come up with a workaround for this problem. They can be absolved of their daily sins by confessing them to a priest.

Thanks,

Walter.

[Nyarlathotep]

@Stevil

But, don’t they believe that Jesus died for their sins?

many Christians feel that since Jesus is on their side; they are no longer sinners.

[mordant]

@Nyarlathotep

many Christians feel that since Jesus is on their side; they are no longer sinners.

There’s a gap between the “official” dogma and what people seem to believe personally. Officially, no major Christian sect actually teaches that Christians cannot sin. The only one I can think of offhand are the more extreme Holiness sects, and even those claims are somewhat qualified. In other words they teach that a state of sinless perfection is possible in this life, but still requires effort.

It’s probably fairest to say that common pew-warmers believe that they are forgiven, and that ongoing forgiveness is freely available at least, if not automatic in the sense that simply realizing you erred and asking for forgiveness is always a yes, without a requirement of big-time contrition. The era of self-flagellation and hair shirts is long gone. In this limited sense, that a Christian is technically a sinner, hardly matters.

[Walter]

CapriMark1,

You asked me to expand on what I said earlier about emotions swaying the minds of intelligent people. Now that I’ve done so, do you have any further thoughts on the issue?

Thanks,

Walter.

[CapriMark1]

@Walter

You asked me to expand on what I said earlier about emotions swaying the minds of intelligent people. Now that I’ve done so, do you have any further thoughts on the issue?

Thanks,

Yes, thank you. I do have more thoughts, but life is interfering right now. I’ll be back.