If God Existed, What Would He Be Like?

Back to discussing needs are we? (JK. I think I know what you mean.)

But as I said, I don’t believe in any such thing as needs just as I don’t need to believe in any deity.

However, I do know (can’t say how epistemologically) that there is something, even if I can’t locate, define or describe it, that makes me me.

I admit this isn’t much to go on from an evidentiary perspective, so much so that you can call it illusory or imaginary if you like, but I’m convinced that “maker”, (which doesn’t actually compel or need me to do anything) is as “real” as I am.

:wink:

If something can be explained without the need for a deity, and no objective evidence can be demonstrated that any deity exists or is possible, this demands I withhold belief from any deity.

Epistemologically, knowledge can be shared and validated objectively.

You are of course entitled to convince yourself of anything, but as I have explained, my threshold for credulity requires sufficient objective evidence be demonstrated for any claim, else I must remain disbelieving. Though of course it’s also clear that one could believe anything if all requires is that one imagines it to be true.

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Of course.

Just as one can disbelieve in everything, including objective evidence.

Further one can do so reasonably given the limitations of human intellect and information.

I think most people consider this sophistry.

But others insist its sophisticated and groovy.

Me?

I guess I’m just unlucky as I don’t believe in luck and have no faith in human objectivity which typically says “You must see things my way, even though my perspective is inherently relative and requires that one remain ignorant of and deny anything I consider fallacious or subjective.”

:wink:

Though if one cares to believe as many true things as possible, this does not seem a reliable standard to set for credulity.

That sounds dubious to me, again if one cares to believe as many true things as possible, it makes sense to set a standard for credulity that most reliably achieves this, and of course believing without objective evidence, and disbelieving where there is sufficient objective evidence would be a very unreliable standard.

Not sure what you’re referring to as sophistry?

Straw man, objectivity strives to remove bias, what you’re describing there is not objectivity. It is of course reasonable to discards claims that are fallacious, as they are weak and poorly reasoned. Subjective claims are obviously less reliable than objective methods. Luck has nothing to do with either logic or objectivity?

[If God Existed, What Would He Be Like?]

Worst case, he’d be like his believers.

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Further, Forum says three responses is enough.

Once again, I concur and bow out.

:wink:

Your comments makes me think of dark energy, and dark matter. It went unnoticed for a very long time, but now is believed to exist. I don’t recall how someone discovered that it exists. but it was not directly measured.

From what I recall dark energy, and dark matter doesn’t directly interact with matter we are familiar with.

On a side note, there is deism. They believe ‘god’ set the universe in motion, and then left it to function on its own, with no need to interact. I am thinking like someone setting up a sealed aquarium and putting it in a window, and let it just ‘work’ and live by itself. Or like the sealed terriuam. People do actually believe in that.

What are your thoughts about observer effects? the process of investigating and measuring something could impact and change the results. is it possible that, in effect atheist skepticism could actually make god not exist? And theist belief could actually make god or gods exist? …weird…

seems like a weasel word (the word directly).

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And this has provided a new gap for one’s god of choice to exist in, unfortunately.

For instance, there’s a panentheist retired professor on another forum who is utterly convinced that dark matter is proof of the deity he believes in (which is, itself, a strange melding of “the universe is conscious ==> consciousness is god ==> his iconoclastic metaphorical understanding of Christianity is the best explanation of god”.

As I understand it, dark matter isn’t IMO the “gotcha” that such theists make it out to be. It is not even settled science what dark matter is or what it does or does not explain (or do, for that matter). But they do try to “make hay” with each new scientific mystery that’s revealed; they seize upon it as if it’s evidence for god they’ve finally got to browbeat unbelievers with.

They take a similar tactic with quantum mechanics and string theory. Anything that science is currently wrestling with, they fancy is some titanic effort to paper over evidence of god as just part of the natural world.

First, I’ll present some introductory notes that are helpful here.

Let’s begin with the obvious. The existence of a god type entity (however this may be defined) is an unanswered question. I cite as evidence, the fact that if a proper, rigorous answer had been found, said answer would now be part of our mainstream body of knowledge, and no one taking part in serious discourse on the matter would be arguing against that answer, be that answer positive or negative.

Likewise, anyone who does succeed in providing a proper, rigorous answer (as opposed to vacuous apologetics), will become global headline news overnight, have prestigious peer reviewed journals scrambling to be the first to publish the data, and be a guaranteed Nobel candidate. That this has not happened should, of course, be suitably informative.

The big problem, of course, is that progress with respect to this question has been made far more difficult than it should have been, courtesy of the activities of authors of various mythologies, and adherents to said mythologies. Whose response to being asked pertinent questions has ranged from summary dismissal, through duplicitous apologetics, to outright homicide.

Of course, none of the output from the mythological sector has ever consisted of anything other than blind assertions, presented as purportedly constituting fact. In accordance with the rules of proper discourse, which places such assertions in the meaningless and epistemologically useless limbo of “truth value unknown”, said assertions can simply be discarded with the same absence of effort that was exerted in presenting them.

But, matters are even worse for the mythological sector, as follows. Namely, any entity that is asserted to possess contradictory or absurd properties can be safely dismissed on those grounds without further ado. This, unfortunately for the mythological sector, applies to all of their various asserted cartoon magic men, which can therefore be swept away wholesale, in accordance with the requirements of discoursive rigour.

Of course, as I have stated here in the past, this does not provide a complete answer to the question, it merely eliminates ridiculous candidates for the “god role”, as it were.

But, what about candidates that aren’t ridiculous?

The problem here, of course, is that the mythological sector has, in the duplicitous fashion typical thereof, crowded out any attempts to construct such candidates, with mendacious attempts to force their choice of ridiculous cartoon magic man upon the rest of us. However, since the aetiology thereof is known, and we can simply ignore them for the purpose of this discourse, the main question is temporarily put on hold, while we try to determine the nature of a plausible candidate for the “god role”.

I would posit that the first requirement, is that such a candidate be one that does not arise from a mythology. Mythologies, as has been noted above, are notorious for containing fanciful and at times farcical fabrication. They are also notorious for containing exhortations to treat critics of said fabrication in a hostile manner.

Instead, we should ask ourselves, what does our knowledge (now substantial) of the nature of observational reality tell us?

It tells us that certain constraints exist upon the behaviour of entities. Blindly asserting that a plausible “god candidate” is magically exempt from such constraints, merely brings us back to mythological fabrication, and is to be rejected. It may be the case, that the candidate may have somewhat more latitude of action than us, but that latitude itself will still be bounded. The reason I propose this, arises from recent developments in cosmological physics, which increasingly points to the origin of the universe being grounded in testable natural processes, said processes themselves subject to constraints.

As a corollary, any entity purported to be responsible for instantiating the observable universe in its current observable form, is required to use those testable natural processes. Magic is out of the question. How said entity achieves this we shall leave aside for the moment, but in a universe where testable natural processes enjoy massive evidential support, and magic is completely bereft of support, we require our plausible “god candidate” to be either consonant with known physics, or to provide consistent extensions thereto.

At this point, I shall briefly remark that our “candidate” need not necessarily be in the singular. More upon this shortly. But let us move on.

I provided some speculations on the matter, in my thread on braneworld cosmology, where I covered the work of Paul Steinhardt and Neil Turok, two of our leading cosmological physicists. That thread, I admit, constitutes heavy reading, but I urge readers of this post to persevere with the contents, so that when they reach this post, they are ready to understand the ideas presented therein, which, once again, I freely admit constitute speculation, but which are honestly presented as such.

In that post, I put forward the idea that it may, at some point in the future, be possible to conduct direct experimental tests of cosmological models, and that such tests could lead to the scientists and their apparatus being, in effect, universe creators as a result of performing those experiments. If one chooses to use the criterion of universe creation as a defining characteristic of a “god”, then we have, in this scenario, the interesting situation in which those scientists and their laboratory apparatus, together constitute the “god” of that laboratory generated universe.

Of course, inhabitants of the mythological sector will immediately erupt into predictable howls at this point. A committee of scientists twiddling the settings of a laboratory machine, does not satisfy their emotional need for a magic entity that shares their desires (particularly their hatreds in the case of some). But, wouldn’t it be deliciously ironic, if instead of, for example, a Bronze Age magic man with a penchant for sadism, misogyny and mass murder, the “god” of our universe was a bunch of scientists belonging to some suitably intelligent species, putting their cosmological models to the test?

I’ve added some other amusements to that speculative post linked to above, which should result in much merriment among those who are tired of mythology driven mischief in the arenas of discourse, policy formation and implementation. I suspect those persevering with my offerings both here and in that other thread, will regard the effort as well expended, when they alight upon some of the suggestions I’ve made.

That you will never see thinking of this sort from the mythological sector, should be wonderfully informative with respect to the deficiencies thereof.

It remains to reinforce one final point. Namely, that while the speculations I’ve provided will doubtless provide a welcome relief from mythological dribblings, they will remain speculations, until we find a means of testing the ideas in question, and conduct the tests in question. But I suspect several here will welcome the opportunity to do just that, should the means become available.

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a ‘weasel’ word? how so?

" Dark energy, which is thought to be responsible for the accelerating expansion of the universe, is measured indirectly by studying the universe’s large-scale structure, cosmic microwave background, and the expansion rate of the universe using methods like measuring distances of Type Ia supernovae.

Here’s a more detailed explanation:

  • Indirect Measurement:

Since we can’t directly observe or measure dark energy, scientists infer its effects by studying the universe’s large-scale structure, geometry, and expansion rate.

  • Supernovae as “Standard Candles”:

Type Ia supernovae, which explode with a consistent brightness, are used as “standard candles” to measure distances to galaxies, allowing scientists to track the expansion rate of the universe over time.

  • Cosmic Microwave Background (CMB):

The CMB, the afterglow of the Big Bang, provides information about the early universe’s geometry and composition, which can be used to constrain models of dark energy.

  • Large-Scale Structure:

Mapping the distribution of galaxies and galaxy clusters helps us understand how the universe has evolved and how dark energy has influenced its structure.

  • Gravitational Lensing:

The bending of light by massive objects (like galaxy clusters) due to gravity, a phenomenon called gravitational lensing, can be used to map the distribution of dark matter and constrain models of dark energy.

  • Dark Energy Survey (DES):

The Dark Energy Survey (DES) uses four complementary methods, including supernovae, galaxy clusters, spatial distribution of galaxies, and weak gravitational lensing, to study cosmic acceleration and dark energy.

  • Dark Energy Spectroscopic Instrument (DESI):

The Dark Energy Spectroscopic Instrument (DESI) measures the positions of millions of galaxies as they existed between 12 billion and two billion years ago, helping to map the universe’s structure and constrain models of dark energy.

  • Andromeda Galaxy:

Researchers have also explored using Andromeda, our galactic neighbor, to measure dark energy by studying how it and the Milky Way are orbiting each other, according to Space.com"

I am surprised to learn that dark and energy and matter as an idea has been around since 1912.

Dark energy wasn’t discovered until the late 1990s. But its origin in scientific study stretches all the way back to 1912 when American astronomer Henrietta Swan Leavitt made an important discovery using Cepheid variables, a class of stars whose brightness fluctuates with a regularity that depends on the star’s brightness.

I am not sure how dark energy does anything to advance or ‘cover up’ the existence of god or not. The strange part is, the whole claim by most theists is god is NOT part of the natural world. He is beyond time and space, existing beyond both.

Therefore, he cannot be observed ‘directly’, in most cases. But apparently can become incarnate somehow, and influence the natura world. …like ‘jesus’, or various avatars in Hinduism.

The current idea of most theists is that god is beyond time and space, and therefore nature. Can’t be measured or observed directly. So, the only thing they try to advance is creationism.

I wish I had a link, but a hindu webpage found it strange how much energy certain Christians spend on trying to demonstrate that creation happened as literally described in the bible. Its an inert book, and not god itself. Hindus seem to believe that god may be experienced directly.

I’d need to know a deity is even possible, as a first step.

Until then all else is conjecture. We might as well be discussing the texture of mermaid’s tails…

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The attraction of dark matter seems to be that all is “not as it seems” in the natural world, science doesn’t (and inherently can’t) rule out god because it can’t even see most of the stuff the universe is made of. And I think this is the central argument, such as it is – if there’s invisible matter, then an invisible god seems more plausible. Or if you prefer to approach it from the other direction, one might say that it’s no more ridiculous to suggest that god is invisible as to suggest that most matter is invisible. It is basically an effort to make their central assertions less risible via a false equivalence.

Yes, most theists claim their deity is not part of the natural world but they are not usually making consistent or coherent claims, either. The legends always suggest that the supernatural can somehow “bleed thru” into the natural without itself becoming natural. But it’s always seemed to me that if god can intervene in or influence the natural world he is making himself less, not more, super-natural.

Thank you for the explanation. I didn’t understand, but I suppose i don’t think 'theistically"

Don’t feel bad … theism is a funhouse hall of mirrors. I only understand it because I escaped the madhouse.

It’s best to think of it as an effort to simplify and disambiguate life to the fullest possible extent. There’s a kind of person in this world who just wants to be told what to do by a powerful and/or trusted authority figure. To just follow orders and leave the difficult work to the leader.

It explains a lot of what society is currently devolving into in the US.

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great cartoon. I think a more accurate depiction would be maybe a few people in the unpleasant truths line. But one would have to zoom out to show million and millions of people in one like and perhaps only a thousand in the other line.

Why don’t you tell us the difference between a direct measurement and an indirect measurement? Could you give examples?