I am convinced that gods don’t exist

Well at best: every region except one MUST be wrong (they could of course all be wrong). Lets grant for a moment that one of them actually is true; and lets say there are 1000 of them, and each one is equally as likely to be the correct one. So when a skeptic suggests that religion X is false, there would be a 99.9% chance they are correct (or a 100% if we assume 0 are correct instead of 1).

eta:
yeah they love Pascal’s Wager, but they won’t entertain this notion, lol

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Though im an atheist i must say thats very vague and easily disputable by a Christian or what have you. They would only have to simply respond with why do you think you have the authority to dictate what should and shouldn’t happen? By what standard do you base that on? I personally hate this argument but its commonly used.

It seems pretty clear to me actually. If a deity exists that is all powerful then it would be trivial for it to make it impossible for anything to happen that it thinks shouldn’t happen … and to make things it feels must happen, inevitable.

The standard Christian rejoinder would involve some sort of argument about free will. Those arguments are never convincing and IMO are in fact incoherent, but that doesn’t stop them from making them. What else can they do. They have an all-powerful god that does not exercise its power about things it supposedly thinks important, but allows its human subjects weaknesses to control everything, with the ultimate result that the vast majority of them will have to be maintained in a torture gulag for all eternity. I mean, think of the heating bills! :grimacing:

So it’s not that we’d be “dictating” what would happen – god, who has all authority, would, you’d think, be doing that about the things that actually cause him to pearl-clutch.

In fact why would he make humans basically incapable of not screwing up by his standards? He could have made people the way he wanted / needed them to be. He could have made you & I perfect models of moral rectitude and integrity without breaking a sweat, yet he didn’t – they he gets upset when we simply act the way he made us to.

Where the Christian free will nattering comes in, is that they say this would make us “robots”. Yet in heaven, no one is capable of rebelling anymore, and this is seen as an ideal state of affairs that we want to be a part of. On the one hand they want freedom to choose to obey or not, on the other hand they want to live in a paradise where they could not and would not disobey. It’s very confusing.

Also incompatible with an omniscient deity, they usually end up chipping away at their vague notions of “free will”, or floating the idea of omniscience lite.

More interestingly if a deity, or any entity, existed that literally had limitless knowledge, it would of course not have any autonomy itself, as it must by definition know in advance every thing it will do. Free will, or any autonomy at all, let alone omnipotence, could not work without negating omniscience.

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Sorry, but I have to disagree. I think the response would be much more mild than that. Something along the lines of “You’re not supposed to question what god does or doesn’t do. You can’t know what god’s plan is - and for sure he has a plan.”

To which I reply: Regardless of whether god has a plan or not, people shouldn’t have to suffer just because that doesn’t fit into god’s plan. He is, after all, omnipotent, so he can eliminate suffering if he wanted to - so why doesn’t he?

Ah the argument of suffering yes. I really enjoy Alex o’connors perspective and argument on this subject.

Within the mind of the religious, it’s magic all the way down. Many logical conundrums such as this, or the conflict between typical theodicies and the tri-omni nature of God, are hand-waved away with special pleading because e.g., God alone could know in advance that he would, of his own free will, make this or that decision.

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If you go back to the creators of god, those who wrote about his reactions, who wrote the books on what he wanted and and didn’t want, one thing is clear. God is a nasty son of a bitch who would just as soon as see you die a horrible death as to see you live a happy fulfilling life. It follows that we aren’t here for any other reason than for his amusement. This I believe is the key to any and all religions success. Religious people strive to be godlike which translates into a mean son of bitch. The more godlike we become the meaner we become and the closer we come to blowing ourselves to hell. (not literally of course because like heaven hell is likely not real either.) Atheism is our species only hope. Or the rapture. TikTok - Make Your Day

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Hi! I’m convinced of the samething myself.

The deity depicted in the bible, exhibits moral traits that surpass even the most evil examples in all of human history.

What’s far worse, is that the deity depicted is often touted as having (almost) limitless choice, through omniscience and omnipotence. Unlike evolved apes of course, so we seem to be setting a far higher moral standard, in terms of empathy, than believers set for the deity depicted in the bible, and the koran come to that.

If a human being tortured a newborn baby to death, most humans would condemn them as irredeemably immoral. Never mind the rest of the cruelly barbaric actions and ideas assigned to it in the bible, and it doesnt just get a pass, it gets worshipped as perfectly moral, the mind boggles.

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A somewhat subjective observation, but I suspect it’s nonetheless true. If so, then it is really concerning that humans can imagine / extrapolate to more evil than they have the power and ability to actually perform. That they lay awake nights apparently fantasizing about what they would do to hurt others if they could do it and/or get away with it.

It is like their god is a Marvel Universe character, a man with infinite power, not just one or two superpowers but all of them. And it explains why these folks love and applaud strong men who hurt others on their behalf. Why even some supposed liberals are dutifully rallying behind Trump like good foot soldiers now that he’s bombed Iran.

And of course, all this fits with “absolute power corrupts absolutely”.

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Christians give their sky daddy a free pass because “he’s a mighty god, therefore it’s okay”. I swear these people don’t comprehend what they’re reading. I think I remember someone telling me he was above human morality and that we have this choice between heaven or hell. I was like “oh whatever lol” :laughing:. I think Christianity is mostly being used to control the masses these days.

Returning for a moment to the opening topic … this answer to one of the usual suspects that I provided is apposite here. For those who haven’t encountered this before, enjoy.

Yes I’ve seen this gem. To be clear, when someone claims something transcends morality, they’re telling me that any moral judgment is meaningless, so that noise you just heard was a bible and a koran, landing in the bin.

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Ah, yes, the usual special pleading that mythology fanboys love so much. “My magic man is special and shiny and beautiful, and isn’t subject to the restraints that we wish to impose upon you”.

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