How do you explain Laws of Logic and Morality?

[Sheldon]

@rat_spit

there is a distinct gap in your assertion that feelings like pain or pleasure are “subjective” experiences only experienced in the brain.”

I don’t know what that means? The brain interprets pain and pleasure from stimuli it receives, I and others have offered citations supporting this. Since no one else can experience or objectively measure my pain it has to be subjective.

We seem to have strayed a long way from the subjective nature of satisfaction.

@rat_spit

we have physical correlates found only in the brain which fully account for the pain.

I already answered that, the experience of pain is subjective, that there are objective causes has no relevance to this fact.

@rat_spit

There is missing scientific theory on what pain is, however we know it’s a brain state, we know it’s a chemical sequence of events, and we know it therefore exists in an objective sense.

Pain is interpreted in the brain of the sufferer, thus it is subjective, since no one else can experience my pain. The objective existence of the stimuli and the fact that there is very likely more we can learn about pain, is not in dispute.

@rat_spit

The feeling is limited to the brain.

Exactly, ipso facto it is subjective by definition.

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

Glad we agree…thus our brains interpreting pleasure is subjective, just like our brain interpreting stimuli as pain.

Can you produce a mechanism for this subjective interpretation?

Just Google it, I found THIS in a few seconds. It explains how stimuli are transmitted to the brain and which parts are involved.

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

Pain is interpreted in the brain of the sufferer, thus it is subjective. No one can experience someone else’s pain.

No one can experience someone else’s chemicals either.

Not sure that is true actually, animals can detect chemicals from each other, it’s a huge part of sexual attraction, it can be objectively demonstrated etc. Whereas the personal experience of pain is fundamentally unobservable, and so we rely on the subjective opinion of the person claiming to experience the pain. Does everyone experience the same amount of pain from identical stimuli? No they do not, they have a subjective interpretation of it.

@rat_spit

And tactile sense receptors can be evidence. Nerves starting at the thumb can be evidenced. Electrical signals leading from the nerve in the thumb to the brain can be evidenced. A location in the brain where those signals culminate can be evidenced. The neurochemicals which transmit electrical impulses can be evidenced.

Yes, though I see no relevance to the fact that our brain’s interpretation of these stimuli is subjective. You seem to be endlessly repeating a straw man argument now?

@rat_spit

There is a gap in scientific understanding

Again I see no relevance to the fact that pain is subjective?

@rat_spit

It’s not really a “feeling”. It’s a cause or an effect of the objective physical process.

What is not really a feeling, I didn’t use the word feeling you did? There are physical stimuli that can be objectively evidenced yes, and our brains subjectively interpret these, sometimes as pain. People are born with different pain thresholds for a start, so experiencing pain is subjective.

I offered a citation, did you read it? Here it is again then:

“Pain is an enigmatic phenomenon that is challenging to treat and study. One challenging attribute is its subjective nature. Pain is defined as a subjective experience,1 which means that it cannot be directly observed by those who are not experiencing it. Yet, clinicians and researchers rely upon observations and measures to assess and infer the pain experienced by other people. This raises the fundamental question of how the inherent subjectivity of pain can and should be addressed and integrated within its assessment.”

CITATION

@rat_spit

“occurs only in the brain” doesn’t define “subjectivity”.

The other way around, subjective defines something that is purely a personal experience, like pain for example.

@rat_spit

Nor does “produced by precise causes and effects” define “subjectivity”.

Since I never remotely claimed this I am wondering why you are telling me? The experience of pain though occurs only in the brain, and thus is subjective, the stimuli the brain subjectively interprets, as I already said are objective.

If I draw something then that drawing is objectively real, but how we interpret it is subjective, art is subjective, music is subjective, they are subjective because we each personally interpret how they make us feel.

[rat_spit]

@Sheldon

The brain interprets pain and pleasure from stimuli it receives, I and others have offered citations supporting this.

Sure. But you don’t have a mechanism. Every physical detail pertaining to a sense perception can be known, and yet the production of the perception itself remains a mystery. It seems as though you’re saying the physical brain gives rise to a non physical force or “essence” for lack of a better word.

@Sheldon

We seem to have strayed a long way from the subjective nature of satisfaction.

I’ll tie that in momentarily

@Sheldon

Pain is interpreted in the brain of the sufferer, thus it is subjective, since no one else can experience my pain

Well. Are subjective perceptions among different peoples objectively similar?

If two twins both eat ripe bananas, do they experience the same flavour? (Assuming their tongues and brains aren’t defective).

@Sheldon

Just Google it, I found THIS in a few seconds. It explains how stimuli are transmitted to the brain and which parts are involved.

Again. Every physical detail seems to be understood, however a mystical “non-physical” entity called “perception” arises that can’t be quantified in physical scientific terms.

@Sheldon

Does everyone experience the same amount of pain from identical stimuli?

Again. We can have a pair of twins and we can subject their hands to baths of waters with varying temperatures from ice cold to blistering hot. It’s safe to assume that their interpretation of the stimuli will give rise to the same mystical thing we call “perception” (even across different temperature gradients - assuming they don’t have Buddhist training in mindful suppression of pain response).

@Sheldon

Again I see no relevance to the fact that pain is subjective?

Again. Everything is physical. Ie. the stimuli; the sense faculty; and the brain. Why is the perception non-physical? What is the mechanism for its coming about under certain conditions?

@Sheldon

Pain is an enigmatic phenomenon that is challenging to treat and study.

Indeed. Since no one knows if it’s a physical or non-physical phenomenon and no one has the slightest clue as to how it arises from physical phenomenon.

@Sheldon

which means that it cannot be directly observed by those who are not experiencing it.

Excepting for a lack of scientific understanding, sure …

@Sheldon

This raises the fundamental question of how the inherent subjectivity of pain can and should be addressed and integrated within its assessment.”

It remains subjective at this stage of scientific inquiry. Things could change.

@Sheldon

the stimuli the brain subjectively interprets, as I already said are objective.

Right. And a banana tastes the same to different people when the conditions are right.

Satisfaction is no different. It’s a perception. It arises in the brain and has physical and neurological correlates. It is a non-physical phenomenon utterly dependent on physical precursors and follows similar pathways in different peoples.

Allowing for an absence of defects, then just in the same way that two twins will taste a banana similarly; the arising of satisfaction in the brain from the stimuli of the ear, the body, the tongue, the eye, and the nose will give rise to the physical correlates for mental satisfaction.

Furthermore; generosity, compassion, moral authority, sympathetic joy, and equanimity are non-physical attributes of the mind which arise universally among humans when the conditions are suitable.

This is the framework for a universal approach to ethics and morality.

[Sheldon]

@rat_spit

But you don’t have a mechanism.

“The Role of the Brain in Interpreting Pain”

CITATION

You clearly didn’t read that as it’s in my previous post you’re responding to, and you have simply repeated the same false claim a few minutes later?

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

Pain is interpreted in the brain of the sufferer, thus it is subjective, since no one else can experience my pain

Are subjective perceptions among different peoples objectively similar?

I answered this, it’s a citation I have offered more than once, and it is in my previous post? I even quoted the relevant text, go back and read it please.
CITATION

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

Just Google it, I found THIS in a few seconds. It explains how stimuli are transmitted to the brain and which parts are involved.

a mystical “non-physical” entity called “perception” arises

Now you’re just making things up, nowhere in that link does it remotely imply anything is non-physical or mystical.

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

Does everyone experience the same amount of pain from identical stimuli?

…we can subject their hands to baths of waters with varying temperatures from ice cold to blistering hot. It’s safe to assume that their interpretation of the stimuli will give rise to the same mystical thing we call “perception”

You called it mystical, no one else, and no we can’t know whether their perceptions are the same, SINCE THEY’RE SUBJECTIVE. We can only compare what we observe, and this was explained in the citation you ignored: “clinicians and researchers must rely upon observations to evaluate pain, the personal experience of pain is fundamentally unobservable. This raises the question of how the inherent subjectivity of pain can and should be integrated within assessment.”

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

Again I see no relevance to the fact that pain is subjective?

Again. Everything is physical. Ie. the stimuli; the sense faculty; and the brain. Why is the perception non-physical?

I never claimed it was, you did, subjective experience does not equate to non-physical.

@rat_spit

What is the mechanism for its coming about under certain conditions?

READ THE LINK PLEASE…

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

Pain is an enigmatic phenomenon that is challenging to treat and study.

Indeed. Since no one knows if it’s a physical or non-physical phenomenon and no one has the slightest clue as to how it arises from physical phenomenon.

Only you have claimed it is non-physical, and I have offered a link explaining how this happens, several times. CITATION “The Role of the Brain in Interpreting Pain”

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

which means that it cannot be directly observed by those who are not experiencing it.

Excepting for a lack of scientific understanding, sure …

Our understanding is in the link, and even were it not, how is this relevant to it being a personal and subjective experience?

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

This raises the fundamental question of how the inherent subjectivity of pain can and should be addressed and integrated within its assessment.”

It remains subjective at this stage of scientific inquiry.

What stage are you suggesting we use?

@rat_spit

a banana tastes the same to different people when the conditions are right.

Evidence that claim please? Since some people hate how bananas taste, while others love how bananas taste, I am dubious about your unevidenced assertion, however the taste one experiences is entirely subjective, though we could describe the subjective experience and compare it if that’s what you mean, just as pain clinicians explained in my link.

@rat_spit

Satisfaction is no different. It’s a perception.

It’s a subjective perception, unless you think everyone gets the same satisfaction from the same foods? You’re picking the worst possible example by using foods, and you seem to be wrongly conflating consensus with objectivity, they;re not the same.

@rat_spit

It is a non-physical phenomenon

I don’t believe you, and have offered evidence to the contrary.

@rat_spit

Allowing for an absence of defects, then just in the same way that two twins will taste a banana similarly;

Since what they are tasting is their personal subjective experience, we can only drawer any inference from their subjective opinions about what they are tasting.

@rat_spit

the body, the tongue, the eye, and the nose will give rise to the physical correlates for mental satisfaction.

They transmit stimuli to the brain, and this is interpreted subjectively, since it is an entirely personal experience it cannot be otherwise, as that is what subjective means. Whether we find something satisfying or to what degree is subjective.

@rat_spit

Furthermore; generosity, compassion, moral authority, sympathetic joy, and equanimity are non-physical attributes of the mind which arise universally among humans when the conditions are suitable.

This is the framework for a universal approach to ethics and morality.

That is a subjective opinion, and I have no idea what this clumsy segway into morality is about, but morality is subjective, and you seem again to be wrongly equating consensus with objective, and they’re not the same.

[rat_spit]

@Sheldon

You clearly didn’t read that as it’s in my previous post you’re responding to, and you have simply repeated the same false claim a few minutes later?

No. I read it. All it says is that the pain is produced in the thalamus. It doesn’t explain how a physical object gives rise to a non-physical property (especially, in this case, something as important as the feeling of pain). Just that it does. Not how. So, again. If you’d like to produce a mechanism, be my guest.

@Sheldon

even quoted the relevant text, go back and read it please.

Read it. “Pain is subjective”. But is it common and similar among different people? Yes or no?

@Sheldon

Now you’re just making things up, nowhere in that link does it remotely imply anything is non-physical or mystical.

And yet you claim it’s subjective. Can it, in that case, be explained only in physical terms, relying solely on the known physical mechanisms of the brain? Yes or no?

@Sheldon

and no we can’t know whether their perceptions are the same, SINCE THEY’RE SUBJECTIVE.

If it is in fact physical, then it can be entirely understood by science; entirely demonstrated and reproduced in a lab under the right conditions. Ie. it is objective in nature.

@Sheldon

I never claimed it was, you did, subjective experience does not equate to non-physical.

Irrational scepticism. We know the underlying physical processes are exactly the same

@Sheldon

We can only compare what we observe

Can’t observe it, eh? Sounds “mystical”.

@Sheldon

I never claimed it was, you did, subjective experience does not equate to non-physical.

And still, you’re unable to produce a physical theory which accounts for pain. And please don’t refer me back to the thalamus. That is where the pain originates. That is not how the pain originates.

@Sheldon

What stage are you suggesting we use?

Well, the current one isn’t able to do the job. So, a later one?

@Sheldon

Evidence that claim please?

The stimuli is the same. The sense faculty is the same. The brain is the same. Ergo, the perception is the same.

@Sheldon

however the taste one experiences is entirely subjective

Only because you’ve failed to produce a physical theory which accounts for the perception aspect of taste.

Whether people are agreeable to the taste of banana or not - that is a facet of satisfaction which exists outside the bare reality of the quality of the taste.

@Sheldon

I don’t believe you, and have offered evidence to the contrary.

What evidence? That it occurs in the brain? How? How does the brain take physical inputs and give an entirely “subjective” output?

@Sheldon

from their subjective opinions about what they are tasting

Irrational skepticism. A banana tastes like a banana. As long as the banana molecule exists, the tongues of the tasters are similar in construction, as are the brains of the tasters, then the quality of the taste is exactly the same.

@Sheldon

interpreted subjectively,

By what? A physical organism? The brain? How does a physical collection of nerves “interpret” and give rise to a quality like taste
unless it does so according to some strict deterministic mechanism?

What do you mean when you say interpret? People “interpret”. Brains process electrical and chemical signals.

@Sheldon

and I have no idea what this clumsy segway into morality is about, but morality is subjective

You seem to be on the fence as to whether perception is a physical process or a subjective one. It can’t be both.

[rat_spit]

I’ll mention one other thing.

When I read the word “subjective” I hear “open to interpretation; opinionated.”

Contrast that with objective, which means “not open to interpretation; factual.”

If you are using “subjective” in this case to mean “experienced exclusively by a person” - that’s fine with me. But in this case, objective realities are being experienced by a subject. It is the objective realities to which I refer. Not the subject of those experiences.

[rat_spit]

Here is an idea of what I’m getting at

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/368275333_Physics_of_Feeling

we don’t have enough information to learn what feeling ultimately is through today’s common

methods. Studies today that showcase empirical relationships in this area are likely to miss the truth of

the matter. Meta-theorization and informed but aggressive speculation is necessary and plausibility

trumps data for the time being, as it was for other, now-solved problems.

Physics and Feeling

Physics describes the fundamental constituents and behaviors of our universe.

The behaviors are described by fundamental physical interactions.

Feeling is natural. Feeling does appear to be an action (a behavior), rather than some kind of substance.

Feeling is of ontologically special character and is not makeable by assembling from pure information

and/or pure matter (Sipfle K. , 2021). That is, feeling is fundamental.

Note that “feelings” such as a person might have are much larger and more complicated things than

what we are discussing here. Fundamental feeling is raw, minimal, and pure, free of fact, referencing

nothing (Sipfle K. , 2018).

[Sheldon]

@rat_spit

I read it. All it says is that the pain is produced in the thalamus.

That’s not true, read the rest.

@rat_spit

“Pain is subjective”. But is it common and similar among different people? Yes or no?

It’s subjective, so there is no objective way to answer, and a consensus of subjective opinion, wouldn’t change this. We also know that people are born with different pain thresholds, that is the point at which they start to experience any pain.

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

Now you’re just making things up, nowhere in that link does it remotely imply anything is non-physical or mystical.

And yet you claim it’s subjective.

So you did make it up then? And there is no “and yet” since your assertions it’s mystical don’t change our perception of pain being subjective.

@rat_spit

If it is in fact physical

If you want claim it’s mystical then you need to evidence that claim, can you?

@rat_spit

If it is in fact physical, then it can be entirely understood by science; and reproduced in a lab

Please tell me this hyperbole is levity?

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

I never claimed it was, you did, subjective experience does not equate to non-physical.

Irrational scepticism.

You made a claim, implied it was mine, and you equated subjective experience to non-physical and mystical, how is my pointing that out setting different standards to similar claims?

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

I never claimed it was, you did, subjective experience does not equate to non-physical.

And still, you’re unable to produce a physical theory which accounts for pain.

Straw man fallacy, since I never claimed I could, you are the one who introduced the term not me. The perception of pain is however a personal and therefore subjective experience.

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

What stage are you suggesting we use?

Well, the current one isn’t able to do the job. So, a later one?

I can only deal in objective evidence and facts, if you want to predict the future then I can’t join you I’m afraid.

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

Evidence that claim please?

The stimuli is the same. The sense faculty is the same. The brain is the same. Ergo, the perception is the same.

That’s an unevidenced assumption, and we can easily evidence examples that demonstrate it is wrong, like your banana example, since we know some people taste something delicious, and others something disgusting, because taste is subjective. We also know that people are born with different pain thresholds, thus what they experience though personal and subjective is demonstrably different.

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

however the taste one experiences is entirely subjective

Only because you’ve failed to produce a physical theory which accounts for the perception aspect of taste.

No, since I have never claimed to have any such theory, it’s subjective because it’s based solely on personal experience, and while some people claim to find (your example) bananas delicious, others claim to find them disgusting. Also we can’t examine what others experience, only examine their claims about their subjective taste.

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

I don’t believe you, and have offered evidence to the contrary.

What evidence?

In the citations.

@rat_spit

A banana tastes like a banana.

Circular reasoning fallacy.

@rat_spit

As long as the banana molecule exists, the tongues of the tasters are similar in construction, as are the brains of the tasters, then the quality of the taste is exactly the same.

Yet people find the tastes wildly different, suggesting you’re unevidenced assertion is very wrong.

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

interpreted subjectively,

By what?

I don’t have enough information, maybe offer the full quote? We are discussing pain, in that case it is the physical brain that interprets the stimuli our sense provide, and that is a personal subjective experience. As of course the citations explained.

@rat_spit

How does a physical collection of nerves “interpret” and give rise to a quality like taste unless it does so according to some strict deterministic mechanism?

Who mentioned nerves interpreting anything? That is also a false dichotomy fallacy.

@rat_spit

What do you mean when you say interpret?

It’s in the dictionary.

@rat_spit

Brains process electrical and chemical signals.

To interpret stimuli from the senses.

@rat_spit

Whether people are agreeable to the taste of banana or not - that is a facet of satisfaction which exists outside the bare reality of the quality of the taste.

I’ve read that four times, and still don’t understand what it means, but since no one can share my experience of taste, then it is by definition personal and subjective.

@rat_spit

How does the brain take physical inputs and give an entirely “subjective” output?

That was explained in the link.

@rat_spit

You seem to be on the fence as to whether perception is a physical process or a subjective one. It can’t be both.

It is an emergent property of a physical brain, and it quite demonstrably is subjective, by definition.

@rat_spit

When I read the word “subjective” I hear “open to interpretation; opinionated.”

Subjective
adjective

1. based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions.

@rat_spit

Contrast that with objective, which means “not open to interpretation; factual.”

Objective
adjective

1. (of a person or their judgement) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.

@rat_spit

If you are using “subjective” in this case to mean “experienced exclusively by a person” - that’s fine with me.

If something is experienced exclusively by a person, then yes that can only be subjective, look at the defintion…

@rat_spit

objective realities are being experienced by a subject. It is the objective realities to which I refer. Not the subject of those experiences.

Objective reality is that which is supported by sufficient objective evidence. it helps if one realises that objectivity is a scale, ranging from entirely subjective opinion “the best colour is red”, to the most reliable objective facts “the world is not flat” “all living things evolved slowly over time” etc…

[rat_spit]

@Sheldon

That’s not true, read the rest.

Not going to. The mechanism isn’t in there because “interprets” is not something a brain can do. Humans interpret. Brains process physical information.

@Sheldon

We also know that people are born with different pain thresholds, that is the point at which they start to experience any pain.

Nope. Same pain. Different threshold. That’s the definition of a threshold. “Experiencing the same pain as another person with the added ability to bare through it.”

It’s like spicy food. Some people have a higher threshold. The spice level is objectively always the same regardless of the tongue.

@Sheldon

pain being subjective.

Pain is objective.

@Sheldon

Please tell me this hyperbole is levity?

If I knew what levity was, I’m might tell you exactly that.

@Sheldon

since I never claimed I could,

And yet you admit that every pain experience has a neuro correlate. You still can’t produce a theory either way. Whether pain is objective or subjective, you have no idea how the brain produces it. Oh. You never claimed to! That’s right isn’t it?

@Sheldon

I can only deal in objective evidence and facts

All the facts lead us to believe that pain is entirely correlated to physical processes - right down to the feeing of it.

@Sheldon

since we know some people taste something delicious, and others something disgusting, because taste is subjective

Nope. Everyone tastes the same flavor. Whether their body reacts in favor or in rejection of the taste is another issue. Much like pain thresholds are another issue aside from the objective measurement of pain.

@Sheldon

it’s subjective because it’s based solely on personal experience,

Personal experience rooted in 100 % objective neuro correlates.

@Sheldon

Circular reasoning fallacy.

What does a banana taste like Sheldon?

@Sheldon

Yet people find the tastes wildly different,

Please demonstrate this to be the case. I beg to differ. The molecule is the same and the taste buds are the same. The brain is the same. Ergo, the experience is the same. Whether you like it or not can depend on a variety of other unrelated conditions. And we’re not talking about those at the moment. But we will

@Sheldon

We are discussing pain, in that case it is the physical brain that interprets the stimuli our sense provide,

Brains don’t interpret. People interpret. You’re using metaphorical anthropomorphic language.

@Sheldon

It’s in the dictionary.

Metaphor

@Sheldon

To interpret stimuli from the senses.

No. They deliver an experience.

@Sheldon

That was explained in the link.

Kay. We’ll end this here then.

@Sheldon

It is an emergent property of a physical brain,

There you go! See? I knew you could do it. You took a “position”. Well done, Shelly.

The property emerges from the brain? Now isn’t that different than, the brain interprets the data?

@Sheldon

based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions.

In this case the feelings are not based on personal feelings. My opinion on President Biden is based on personal feelings. Those feelings are emergent properties of the brain.

@Sheldon

of a person or their judgement) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.

Exactly. We can’t control what we feel. Our environment dictates that for us.

@Sheldon

If something is experienced exclusively by a person, then yes that can only be subjective, look at the defintion…

Except that the neuro correlates are 100% physical and objective.

@Sheldon

ranging from entirely subjective opinion “the best colour is red”,

How about “the quality of the colour red has an existence independent of personal convictions or opinions and is entirely rooted on a) the wavelength of the light b) the ability of the eye to absorb light c) the ability of the brain to translate that light signal into neuro and chemical signals and d) the emergent property of colour.”??? Is that “subjective”?

[Sheldon]

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

That’s not true, read the rest.

Not going to.

Now that is irrational scepticism. You can’t just handwave away facts you don’t like. How many scientific citations have you posted to support your claims now, oh yeah, that’s none.

@rat_spit

The mechanism isn’t in there because “interprets” is not something a brain can do. Humans interpret. Brains process physical information.

Semantics, and either way the experience of pain would still be entirely personal, and therefore subjective.

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

We also know that people are born with different pain thresholds, that is the point at which they start to experience any pain.

Nope. Same pain. Different threshold. That’s the definition of a threshold. “Experiencing the same pain as another person with the added ability to bare through it.”

“Pain threshold is the minimum intensity at which a person begins to perceive, or sense, a stimulus as being painful . Pain tolerance, is the maximum amount, or level, of pain a person can tolerate or bear.”
CITATION

pain threshold

1. The point at which a person becomes aware of pain.
   CITATION

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

pain being subjective.

Pain is objective.

It is an entirely personal experience, no one can experience someone else’s pain, you may want to handwave this away with the “nuh uh” argument, but it’s not at all compelling.

"Cerebral Cortical Regions Reflect Interindividual Differences in Pain Sensitivity. A substantial body of evidence indicates that the cerebral cortical regions activated more frequently and more robustly in the highly sensitive individuals play important roles in the pain experience"

CITATION

@rat_spit

Whether pain is objective or subjective, you have no idea how the brain produces it.

It’s subjective since it is an entirely personal experience. I also linked an explanation of how the brain interprets signals, which you claimed to have read, then when it was clear you hadn’t, claimed you weren’t going to read, yet are happy to keep repeating this lie? Here is where you said you’re not going to read the rest of the link:

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

That’s not true, read the rest.

Not going to.

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

I can only deal in objective evidence and facts

All the facts lead us to believe that pain is entirely correlated to physical processes - right down to the feeing of it.

There is no reason to imagine brain functions even subjective experiences like pain are not physical or physiological phenomenon, so why you keep drawing this arbitrary line is unclear. There is also some evidence that “your mind can cause pain without a physical source”

"Pain is an enigmatic phenomenon that is challenging to treat and study. One challenging attribute is its subjective nature. Pain is defined as a subjective experience,"
CITATION

" the personal experience of pain is fundamentally unobservable. This raises the question of how the inherent subjectivity of pain can and should be integrated within assessment."
CITATION

“The Subjective Experience of Pain: an FMRI Study of Percept-related Models and Functional Connectivity”
CITATION

“Pain is a subjective experience, yet patients must engage in decision making and translate their internal experience to a verbal descriptor in order to obtain treatment and relief.”
CITATION

Beyond endlessly repeating your own dubious opinion, what have you got?

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

since we know some people taste something delicious, and others something disgusting, because taste is subjective

Nope. Everyone tastes the same flavor.

New Scientist
“Why are some foods delicious to some people and disgusting to others?”
CITATION

“The subjective experience of taste involves more than just taste sensations. We have a whole host of responses and reactions to those sensations, and to the items that give rise to the sensations.”
CITATION

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

it’s subjective because it’s based solely on personal experience,

Personal experience rooted in 100 % objective neuro correlates.

You either don’t understand what solely personal experience means, or you don’t know what subjective means, as any solely personal experience is subjective. That objective physiological facts lead up to it is irrelevant, the experience of pain is solely personal, and therefore subjective.

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

Circular reasoning fallacy.

What does a banana taste like Sheldon?

Depends who you ask, since what we experience is subjective.

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

Yet people find the tastes wildly different,

Please demonstrate this to be the case. I beg to differ.

New Scientist
“Why are some foods delicious to some people and disgusting to others?”
CITATION

@rat_spit

Brains don’t interpret.

“The Role of the Brain in Interpreting Pain”
From the link I have provided several times, that you isnisted you’d read, it’s the title at the top.
CITATION

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

To interpret stimuli from the senses.

No. They deliver an experience.

READ THE LINK… ALL OF IT…

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

That was explained in the link.

Kay. We’ll end this here then.

With you handwaving facts away, t’was ever thus.

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

It is an emergent property of a physical brain,

The property emerges from the brain?

After the brain interprets the stimuli it receives.

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions.

In this case the feelings are not based on personal feelings.

Pain is entirely based on personal feelings. We don’t and can’t feel someone else’s pain, it is a purely personal experience, ipso facto it is a subjective experience.

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

of a person or their judgement) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.

Exactly. We can’t control what we feel. Our environment dictates that for us.

Sigh, it has nothing to do with control, pain is an entirely personal experience, ipso facto it is a subjective experience.

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

If something is experienced exclusively by a person, then yes that can only be subjective, look at the defintion…

Except that the neuro correlates are 100% physical and objective

The experience of pain is not, it is entirely subjective.

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

ranging from entirely subjective opinion “the best colour is red”,

How about

The rest had no relevance to what I posted, or even what you quoted. As I said some time ago, I am not confident you fully understand the difference between subjective experience and objective experience.

If I step on a piece of lego that’s an objective experience, the pain my brain interprets from it is an entirely personal and therefore a subjective experience.

[rat_spit]

@Sheldon

How many scientific citations have you posted to support your claims now, oh yeah, that’s none.

You’re gunna be sorry you asked. Put this in your brain and smoke it.

To study how bacteria feel their surroundings, the team inserted special genes into E. coli bacteria that glow when calcium ions or electricity pulse through them. The cells were placed in a sticky substrate under a microscope. Left alone, the cells remained dim. But when the scientists pushed a pad against them, the bacteria lit up. The sparks of light indicated that proteins, ions and electricity were moving around in the bacteria.

The results indicate that bacteria and other creatures share a common tool for sensing their environment—an electrical pathway with the same functionality as human sensory neurons. From an evolutionary perspective, this signaling trait could be billions of years old and used by some of the oldest organisms on Earth.

Bacteria have feelings, too

@Sheldon

and either way the experience of pain would still be entirely personal,

This whole discussion is becoming “personal”

@Sheldon

pain threshold

1. The point at which a person becomes aware of pain.
   CITATION

Which doesn’t mean the pain isn’t there.

@Sheldon

no one can experience someone else’s pain,

Put two people in a boiling cauldron of shit and they will experience each others pain as evidenced by duplicate physical stimuli and brain activity/melting skin.

@Sheldon

yet are happy to keep repeating this lie?

It’s not a lie. It’s not any less of a philosophical stand point than yours. Don’t call me a liar. You’re a liar.

@Sheldon

Pain is defined as a subjective experience,"

Currently defined as such by mind-body dualist philosophical schools of thought.

@Sheldon

Beyond endlessly repeating your own dubious opinion, what have you got?

I got “bacteria and sodium ion channels”. You wanna ante up?

@Sheldon

Why are some foods delicious to some people and disgusting to others?”

Something to do with nutritional needs and/or inherent genetic allergies.

None of this changes the shape of the molecules in our food, the receptivity of our taste buds, or the areas of the brain where these signals are processed. Ie. none of our predilections change the taste of the food; they simply change our response to it.

@Sheldon

the experience of pain is solely personal

Except “panpsychism”. So nah nah nah.

@Sheldon

Depends who you ask, since what we experience is subjective.

Why do you think banana extract tastes like a banana?

@Sheldon

Why are some foods delicious to some people and disgusting to others?”

Predilections are not perceptions.

@Sheldon

READ THE LINK… ALL OF IT…

Don’t got time. huff huff running late. Very busy. Phone calls all over the place. Typing as fast as I can. Hand waving and such.

@Sheldon

After the brain interprets the stimuli it receives.

After the brain creates the emergent property, you mean …

@Sheldon

Pain is entirely based on personal feelings. We don’t and can’t feel someone else’s pain, it is a purely personal experience, ipso facto it is a subjective experience.

Rub a dub dub, two men jerking each other off in a tub.

@Sheldon

Sigh, it has nothing to do with control, pain is an entirely personal experience, ipso facto it is a subjective experience.

Pain is an entirely physical phenomenon with an emergent correlate which is poorly understood but universally experienced according to deterministic physical laws and processes.

@Sheldon

The experience of pain is not, it is entirely subjective.

Entirely … right? And when I see blue you see green and vice versa. No universals. Ah. Indeed. Sheldon, the post modernist.

@Sheldon

subjective experience and objective experience.

Subjective - open to interpretation
Objective - not open to interpretation

People - make interpretations
Brains - don’t make interpretations

[Sheldon]

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

pain threshold

1. The point at which a person becomes aware of pain.
   CITATION

Which doesn’t mean the pain isn’t there.

You mean the stimuli is there, but our subjective perception is not, since different people have different pain thresholds, the point at which they start to experience pain, and that is also subjective.

You bacteria link has no relevance to the subjective nature of human pain I can see, none?

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

no one can experience someone else’s pain,

Put two people in a boiling cauldron of shit and they will experience each others pain

No they will each experience their own pain, unless you are now suggesting they’re telepathically linked?

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

yet are happy to keep repeating this lie?

It’s not a lie.

I have posted links that explain how our brains interpret stimuli as pain a half dozen times, yet you keep denying this. It’s also clear from your responses you have not properly read the link, you even missed the title at the top that asserted brains interpret pain, and claimed brains do not interpret.You’re still falsely claiming that in this post.

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

Beyond endlessly repeating your own dubious opinion, what have you got?

I got “bacteria and sodium ion channels”.

Nothing in there remotely asserts that the human experience of pain is objective? care to offer a specific quote? Then explain why the multiple scientific links I posted, specifically claim it is subjective?

@rat_spit

none of our predilections change the taste of the food; they simply change our response to it.

You’ve just described a personal subjective experience, and this part of the dialogue started because you used taste as an example of an objective experience, so thanks for recanting, and I agree, taste is a subjective experience, just like pain.

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

Why are some foods delicious to some people and disgusting to others?”

Predilections are not perceptions.

Ah so another scientific citation is simply waved away, irrational scepticism ahoy…

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

After the brain interprets the stimuli it receives.

After the brain creates the emergent property, you mean …

No, the human brain interprets the stimuli as pain, that is an emergent property of the brain, like consciousness. Again this is in the link you keep ignoring.

@rat_spit

Pain is…universally experienced

We all experience pain, but that experience is solely personal, and thus subjective, we cannot experience the pain of others.

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

The experience of pain is not, it is entirely subjective.

Entirely … right?

Yes, no one can experience anyone else’s pain.

@rat_spit

Subjective - open to interpretation
Objective - not open to interpretation

That’s not the definitions, I even posted these for you?

Subjective

1. based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions.

Pain is an entirely personal feeling, thus it is subjective, by definition.

@rat_spit

Brains - don’t make interpretations

“The Role of the Brain in Interpreting Pain”
CITATION

[rat_spit]

@Sheldon

the point at which they start to experience pain,

A threshold is a point after which pain cannot be endured any longer. A threshold is a manifestation of one’s ability to endure pain; not a representation of how much pain is being experienced.

@Sheldon

You bacteria link has no relevance to the subjective nature of human pain I can see, none?

Perhaps that’s because it identifies the objective nature of feeling; ie. a mechanism by which all organisms experience feeling that can be objectively evidenced outside a brain.

@Sheldon

No they will each experience their own pain, unless you are now suggesting they’re telepathically linked?

And how will person A’s pain be different than person B’s. apart from the location in space a time, the conditions are all the same. Same conditions produce same effects.

@Sheldon

have posted links that explain how our brains interpret stimuli as pain a half dozen times,

I don’t really care about third party explanations. I’ve also asked you multiple and numerous times to explain how a physical object like the brain is able to conduct a personal activity like “interpreting”. You’re using anthropomorphic language.

@Sheldon

Nothing in there remotely asserts that the human experience of pain is objective?

Except that the mechanism for feeling and thus pain can be objectively evidenced in a lab outside the confines of a brain.

@Sheldon

You’ve just described a personal subjective experience, and this part of the dialogue started because you used taste as an example of an objective experience, so thanks for recanting, and I agree, taste is a subjective experience, just like pain.

I don’t know what you’re so welcome for. The “personal subjective experience” of predilection is based on the objective neuro correlates which give rise to feelings such as pain.

@Sheldon

Ah so another scientific citation is simply waved away, irrational scepticism ahoy…

Yep.

@Sheldon

No, the human brain interprets the stimuli as pain, that is an emergent property of the brain, like consciousness. Again this is in the link you keep ignoring.

People interpret. Brains process.

@Sheldon

Yes, no one can experience anyone else’s pain.

Except that when I stub my toe and my wife stubs her toe we both cry out in pain. Same conditions equal same effects. The fact that one appears critically located in one brain and the other in another means nothing. If you bake a chocolate cake in one oven and another chocolate cake in another oven, do they come out as different types of cake? Jeesh.

@Sheldon

based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions.

Sure. Have your cake and eat it too.

@Sheldon

Pain is an entirely personal feeling,

Our response to pain is based on personal feeling. Our pain itself is not based on personal feeling. It is personal feeling. Which, I might add, up to this point you’ve been unable to explain in the context of emergent properties.

You seem confident that the feelings are subjective and yet, in spite of admitting the pain is entirely correlated with neurological events, you are unable to derive them from any first principles.

That the feelings arise on neuro correlates, like the ones outlined with the bacteria, shows that they are common among people and indeed among organisms - pointing to a shared and objective origin for feeling, pain, and pleasure.

[Sheldon]

@rat_spit

A threshold is a point after which pain cannot be endured any longer. A threshold is a manifestation of one’s ability to endure pain; not a representation of how much pain is being experienced.

@Sheldon

pain threshold

1. The point at which a person becomes aware of pain.
   CITATION

pain threshold
noun

1. the point beyond which a stimulus causes pain.
   CITATION

So that’s the national cancer institute, and the dictionary’s definition of what a pain threshold is, what you are describing AS I TOOK THE TIME AND TROUBLE TO EXPLAIN WITH ANOTHER CITATION, is pain tolerance.

" Pain tolerance is the maximum level of pain that a person is able to tolerate . Pain tolerance is distinct from pain threshold (the point at which pain begins to be felt)."
CITATION

Now that’s three separate citations citing objective evidence, vs your unevidenced assertion. It’s like you’re simply disagreeing with every single fact just for the sake of it?

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

Your bacteria link has no relevance to the subjective nature of human pain I can see, none?

Perhaps that’s because it identifies the objective nature of feeling;

No, it’s precisely for the reason I gave, and that you have not addressed at all, that a) it neither mentions nor implies that human pain is objective anywhere, and b) it does not address the fact that all the objective scientific medical evidence (cited repeatedly) states precisely the opposite. making your subjective conclusion very dubious. The facts simply don’t support your claim.

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

No they will each experience their own pain, unless you are now suggesting they’re telepathically linked?

And how will person A’s pain be different than person B’s. apart from the location in space a time, the conditions are all the same. Same conditions produce same effects.

I never said their pain was different? I very specifically said they experience only their own pain, and that it is subjective because of this, I can’t say if it differs for that very reason. Just as you can’t claim to know it is the same for that very reason.

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

have posted links that explain how our brains interpret stimuli as pain a half dozen times,

I don’t really care about third party explanations.

Yes I see that you genuinely cling to beliefs and assertions, even when all the objective evidence and facts contradict it, though why anyone would do this is unclear? I can only point out that in a debate this is a bit like a child imagining it cannot be seen by hiding it’s face behind its hands. The only person you are fooling is yourself, though of course you can do this if it makes you happy, by why would deluding yourself make you happy in this instance?

@rat_spit

I’ve also asked you multiple and numerous times to explain how a physical object like the brain is able to conduct a personal activity like “interpreting”.

IT’S IN THE LINK YOU JUST SAID YOU HAD NO INTEREST IN??? I quoted it several times, and then stopped wasting my time as you are ignoring the objective evidence. You keep asking for it, then telling me that you have no interest it when I offer it, so do you see the utter pointlessness of me wasting my time trying to help you when you ask for information you could just as easily access yourself, only for you to then ignore it, and feign disinterest, simply because the objective evidence contradicts a subjective belief you seem to be invested in? Anyone who wants to can go back and re-read those links of course, mine and others.

@rat_spit

You’re using anthropomorphic language.

Fuck me! isn’t all language anthropomorphic? I’ll try bullet points.

1. We are specifically addressing human pain.
2. It was a quote, and a citation, so the language was not even mine ffs?

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

Nothing in there remotely asserts that the human experience of pain is objective?

Except that the mechanism for feeling and thus pain can be objectively evidenced in a lab outside the confines of a brain.

I didn’t find anything in there that supported that assumption, could you quote if please, I did ask and you didn;t respond. In the meantime it wasn’t human pain of course, so am dubious about your claim that anyone can objectively experience pain from another human being?

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

Ah so another scientific citation is simply waved away, irrational scepticism ahoy…

Yep.

Suggesting you’re either not remotely interested in facts or the truth, or you;re trolling?

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

No, the human brain interprets the stimuli as pain, that is an emergent property of the brain, like consciousness. Again this is in the link you keep ignoring.

People interpret. Brains process.

People have brains, the evidence and citations are there for all to see, and they specifically said pain is interpreted by the brain. You can try stamping your foot when you blindly deny this if you want, though what you hope to achieve by denying scientific citations in favour of your own subjective opinion is unclear?

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

Yes, no one can experience anyone else’s pain.

Except that when I stub my toe and my wife stubs her toe we both cry out in pain.

Yes, your own, not anyone else’s which you can’t experience, because it is entirely subjective. if your wife stubbed her toe and you experienced pain then yes that would suggest it can be objective, but since only she would experience her pain then that demonstrates it is entirely subjective.

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions.

Sure. Have your cake and eat it too.

What on earth are you blathering about, that is the dictionary definition of subjective? I even linked it for you, as you seem to have the theistic aversion of dictionaries.

@rat_spit

Our pain itself is not based on personal feeling.

Who else can feel it? Dear oh dear…I still think you are simply misunderstanding subjective, especially after your baffling and irrelevant response above to the dictionary definition.

@rat_spit

You seem confident that the feelings are subjective

That is because all the objective evidence demonstrates this to be the case.

@rat_spit

That the feelings arise on neuro correlates, like the ones outlined with the bacteria, shows that they are common among people

Straw man fallacy, and irrelevant, since we only feel our own pain, no one else’s, thus it is a personal feeling and ipso facto it is subjective.

@rat_spit

pointing to a shared and objective origin for feeling, pain, and pleasure.

Demonstrate that someone, anyone, can feel anyone else’s pain, give one evidenced example.

[rat_spit]

@Sheldon

Now that’s three separate citations citing objective evidence, vs your unevidenced assertion

Dictionary definitions count as “objective evidence”? The subjective opinion of the author of a dictionary is now “objective evidence”? Whereas my take on the matter is now “unevidenced”? I won’t go into this again. A chocolate cake is a chocolate cake. It’s irrelevant which oven you bake it in.

@Sheldon

It’s like you’re simply disagreeing with every single fact just for the sake of it?

Pot calling the kettle black? Much?

@Sheldon

nor implies that human pain is objective anywhere

You fail to see the implication. The neurocorrelates define the objectivity of the experience. And I have supplied you with neurocorrelates in bacteria which evidence feeling and pain outside the confines of a brain. Are you disagreeing with everything I point out just for the sake of disagreeing?

@Sheldon

b) it does not address the fact that all the objective scientific medical evidence (cited repeatedly) states precisely the opposite.

The objective citations of subjective authors? Indeed. Why would I bow to the authority of a medical journal espousing mind-body Cartesian dualistic philosophical schools of thought which I fundamentally disagree with?

The knowledge base of these establishments you seem to enjoy citing is lacking in coherency. Because they fail to understand how feeling emerges from physical realities, they label it “subjective”. I do not subscribe to their ignorance. So you can stop citing third parties.

@Sheldon

I never said their pain was different?

Wow. Then you get it? The pain is the same. Different people, same conditions, similar feelings, if not identical.

@Sheldon

and that it is subjective because of this,

And in as much as people can relate to each others pain, there exists an objective standard by which it can be acknowledged. That’s all I’m saying.

@Sheldon

Just as you can’t claim to know it is the same for that very reason.

Irrational skepticism. Of course it’s the same. Same cake, different oven.

@Sheldon

by why would deluding yourself make you happy in this instance?

Ignorance is bliss, I suppose. Stop lecturing me. You’re not my father? Are you? Dad?

@Sheldon

simply because the objective evidence contradicts a subjective belief you seem to be invested in?

Can’t cook chicken soup without a chicken base

@Sheldon

Fuck me!

Which hole?

@Sheldon

isn’t all language anthropomorphic?

an·thro·po·mor·phism

noun

1. the attribution of human characteristics or behavior to a god, animal, or object.

In this case your anthropomorphizing the brain by giving it human traits.

@Sheldon

could you quote if please,

What’s the point? You haven’t agreed with a damn thing I’ve said up till now and you’re not going to in the future. Same cake, different oven.

@Sheldon

Suggesting you’re either not remotely interested in facts or the truth, or you;re trolling?

Not trolling. Tired of going around in circles? Frustrated? Yes. ADHD? Oh yeah! Don’t take it personally. Fuck me in the ear, Sheldon!!! What’s up? How’s that leg feeling after the injury?

@Sheldon

and they specifically said pain is interpreted by the brain.

I don’t accept the anthropomorphic ignorance of philosophical schools of thought which I don’t agree with.

@Sheldon

Yes, your own, not anyone else’s which you can’t experience, because it is entirely subjective.

You’ve ignored the cake analogy (which I’m quite proud of).

@Sheldon

What on earth are you blathering about, that is the dictionary definition of subjective?

You sound like you could use a pint.

@Sheldon

That is because all the objective evidence demonstrates this to be the case.

Not so. And until you can evidence how physical neurocorrelates give rise to emergent phenomena such as feeling and pain, you have no right to assert that they don’t exist objectively.

@Sheldon

Demonstrate that someone, anyone, can feel anyone else’s pain, give one evidenced example.

This is called empathy. Because I know the pain you’re going through I “feel” your pain.

[Sheldon]

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

Now that’s three separate citations citing objective evidence, vs your unevidenced assertion

Dictionary definitions count as “objective evidence”?

That’s not all l I offered though, as anyone can see, and since we are disputing definitions, then yes the dictionary is objective evidence of what the definitions currently reflect common usage. Perhaps you have a better standard for common usage of words “pain threshold” than a dictionary, or medical science? Other than your unevidenced subjective opinion of course, which is all you’ve offered thus far.

@rat_spit

The subjective opinion of the author of a dictionary

Dictionaries are based on collective or common usage, not on the authors opinion, did you not know this?

@rat_spit

Whereas my take on the matter is now “unevidenced”?

Since you didn’'t offer a shred of objective evidence then yes, obviously? You can easily correct me, it’s no more than 6 posts back…quote where you claim you offered objective evidence for your claim, a claim that is roundly contradicted by the National Cancer Institute, and the dictionary definition?

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

It’s like you’re simply disagreeing with every single fact just for the sake of it?

Pot calling the kettle black? Much?

I have not disagreed with any objective facts, only your unevidenced subjective opinions, but please do quote me doing so, and if I have done so I will acknowledge it, but you will need to quote me verbatim, using the quote function so anyone can link to the original post. FYI they already have you contradicting dictionary definitions and scientific medical citations.

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

nor implies that human pain is objective anywhere

You fail to see the implication.

No, you failed to quote a single line from your link that directly supports your claim that the human experience of pain is objective, and scientific conclusions drawn from research are not “implied” subjectively by you on the internet.

@rat_spit

Are you disagreeing with everything I point out just for the sake of disagreeing?

No, I just don’t believe subjective claims that are not supported by any objective evidence.

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

b) it does not address the fact that all the objective scientific medical evidence (cited repeatedly) states precisely the opposite.

The objective citations of subjective authors?

Which was why I offered several citations from different sources, and quoted specifically why they concluded pain is subjective, though ironically you seem to be applying this mendacious claim only to those citations, and not to the one you offered, and from which you have failed to quote anything that supports the assumptions you are making?

@rat_spit

I do not subscribe to their ignorance.

Poisoning of the well fallacy. Though the irony that your subjective unevidenced bias carries more weight than credible scientific sources is palpable.

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

I never said their pain was different?

Wow. Then you get it? The pain is the same.

No, that’s not remotely what I said:

@Sheldon

I never said their pain was different? I very specifically said they experience only their own pain, and that it is subjective because of this, I can’t say if it differs for that very reason. **Just as you can’t claim to know it is the same for that very reason.

So your straw man seems pretty dishonest.

@rat_spit

in as much as people can relate to each others pain

No one can objectively experience anyone else’s pain, thus it is subjective, I can empathise with experiences I have never had, I do it all the time.

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

Just as you can’t claim to know it is the same for that very reason.

Irrational skepticism.

No it isn’t read it again, I applied the saem standard, neither of us can claim to know whether the pain two people (in your example) experience is different or the same, as we can’t experience their pain, thus it is subjective.

@rat_spit

Of course it’s the same.

If you can’t objectively experience anyone else’s pain, then you can’t say whether it is the same as yours or anyone else’s in any given circumstance, repeating your subjective unevidenced claim doesn;t change this.

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

isn’t all language anthropomorphic?

an·thro·po·mor·phism

the attribution of human characteristics

noun

Which other species were you suggesting human language is derived from?

@rat_spit

In this case your anthropomorphizing the brain by giving it human traits.

The human brain doesn’t have human traits? That is simply hilarious fair play…Oh and I am doing nothing, it was a verbatim quote, as you know, so that’s a porky pie right there:

“The Role of the Brain in Interpreting Pain”
CITATION

Oh and that’s from The National Library of Medicine.

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

@rat_spit

Except that the mechanism for feeling and thus pain can be objectively evidenced in a lab outside the confines of a brain.

I didn’t find anything in there that supported that assumption, could you quote if please, I did ask and you didn;t respond. In the meantime it wasn’t human pain of course, so am dubious about your claim that anyone can objectively experience pain from another human being?

What’s the point? You haven’t agreed with a damn thing I’ve said up till now and you’re not going to in the future.

So you can’t quote a single word from your citation to support your subjective assumption about what the research concludes, and instead all you have is this poisoning of the well fallacy, that dishonestly projects your bias onto me? Hmmm…

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

they specifically said pain is interpreted by the brain.

I don’t accept the anthropomorphic ignorance of philosophical schools of thought which I don’t agree with.

It’s not a philosophical school of thought, it’s from The National Library of Medicine.

Here’s another quote…from The National Library of Medicine

“Most notably, the insula and anterior cingulate cortex are consistently activated when nociceptors are stimulated by noxious stimuli, and activation in these brain regions is associated with the subjective experience of pain.”

CITATION

We also have the National Cancer Institute, among others, “philosophical school of thought”, you do make me laugh, I’ll give you that.

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

Yes, your own, not anyone else’s which you can’t experience, because it is entirely subjective.

You’ve ignored the cake analogy (which I’m quite proud of).

You’ve ignored the facts again, I am less proud of that, given how hard I have tried to help explain the difference between subjective belief, and objective facts.

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

That is because all the objective evidence demonstrates this to be the case.

Not so.

Ah, the nu huh argument again.

@rat_spit

@Sheldon

Demonstrate that someone, anyone, can feel anyone else’s pain, give one evidenced example.

This is called empathy. Because I know the pain you’re going through I “feel” your pain.

That’s the same claim but using cheap semantics as a metaphor, now demonstrate objective evidence that anyone can “objectively experience” anyone else’s pain. Not empathize based on their own reaction to their own subjective experience of pain.

I empathized with @mr.macabre13 as we both have chronic back pain, but I cannot experience his pain, nor he mine.

[mr.macabre13]

Chronic pain fucking sucks, I’ve been dealing with it for almost a decade now. Sheldon and I can empathize with each other’s physical difficulties, that’s true, but I wouldn’t wish what I’ve been through on anybody(almost).
My wife can empathize with my problems, and does so on a daily basis, but she can’t SHARE my pain, it’s mine and mine alone. rat_spit:, trust me, empathy is not the same as sharing someone else’s pain.
You can never feel my pain, Sheldon’s, or anyone else’s other than your own.

[Sheldon]

@mr.macabre13

Chronic pain fucking sucks, I’ve been dealing with it for almost a decade now.

I sympathise, my back pain manifested in 1988, but luckily it fluctuates from barely noticeable to debilitating, if it was at its worse all the time I doubt I’d have made it this far, and I lost it pretty badly at the start, but I was only 22. I’m not working now, so can rest, stretch and exercise pretty much as I please, and have a series of physio exercises the local hospital gave me, they are helping, but I wish I’d had them 36 years ago. Then again no point wishing…it could be worse that’s for sure, and I suppose I appreciate the times I am almost pain free more than if I didn’t have chronic pain…

[Old_man_shouts_at_cl]

@Sheldon

I am almost pain free more than if I didn’t have chronic pain…

Having suffered from the same type of pain for the last two and a half decades Shelley I empathise, lately I have been using my Quest 2 VR kit and discovered some great physio exercises and even tai chi online. They have improved my morning “aches” (read screaming fucking agony) immeasurably. I can do them privately (apart from hearing CC and She laughing as they watch me follow invisible instructions) in my own living room. Brilliant thing.

[rat_spit]

@Sheldon

Other than your unevidenced subjective opinion of course, which is all you’ve offered thus far.

jab jab jab goes the knife.

@Sheldon

Dictionaries are based on collective or common usage, not on the authors opinion, did you not know this?

No. I thought dictionaries were blueprints for how the world works. Yes I know. I don’t agree with the common usage of the terms you’ve cited.

@Sheldon

Since you didn’'t offer a shred of objective evidence then yes, obviously?

Neither have you. This is getting old Sheldon. These left turns are happening too frequently. Let’s get to the chase scene.

@Sheldon

only your unevidenced subjective opinions,

Yes. I can see you’re getting irritated. Let me ask you one thing.

Is it Unevidenced that every single time you feel pain there is a neural correlate for that pain?

And if I have the same neuro correlate as you what does that tell you about our subjective experiences?

Here. I’ll answer for you. They’re the same. We need not be irrationally sceptical about that conclusion. If you tell me that argument is unevidended, I’m done. I’m walking away. You’re unreasonable.

@Sheldon

No, you failed to quote a single line from your link that directly supports your claim that the human experience of pain is objective

To borrow one of your lines: go back and read it again.

@Sheldon

Though the irony that your subjective unevidenced bias carries more weight than credible scientific sources is palpable

Pff. Yeah. You be the judge. You’re starting to sound like my father.

@Sheldon

So your straw man seems pretty dishonest.

Regardless. When conditions A = conditions B then effect A = effect B. Ergo. We can be sure that we all experience the same quality of pain under the same pain conditions.

@Sheldon

as we can’t experience their pain

You don’t have to. Same cake, different oven. Fucking christ almighty. Do you understand the analogy?

@Sheldon

repeating your subjective unevidenced claim doesn;t

One more time and we’re done. Conditions A = Conditons B implies that effects A = effects B

@Sheldon

so that’s a porky pie right there:

honk honk.

Why don’t you become an anthropologist?

@Sheldon

with the subjective experience of pain.”

Except that it’s not. Failing to understand how physical processes in the brain give rise to emergent things like pain does not imply that those things are therefore subjective. It implies that the understanding of these fucktards is insufficient.

@Sheldon

That’s the same claim but using cheap semantics as a metaphor, now demonstrate objective evidence that anyone can “objectively experience” anyone else’s pain.

It’s inferrential. That’s all it need be to overcome irrational skepticism. What? I can’t use inference to gain knowledge. One last time … same cake, different oven.

Same experiences, different brains. Really not that difficult. It’s how we communicate. Language is exactly the same. We use symbols to refer to objects and then we share those symbols with each other to express knowledge back and forth.

@Sheldon

Not empathize based on their own reaction to their own subjective experience of pain.

Ever heard the phrase, “I know how you’re feeling.”

Gawd almighty Sheldon.

[rat_spit]

@mr.macabre13

rat_spit:, trust me, empathy is not the same as sharing someone else’s pain.
You can never feel my pain, Sheldon’s, or anyone else’s other than your own.

I get it. I really do. And there are some pains we have that others can’t even relate to. But then there are mundane feelings like stubbing your toe which most people will agree sucks. And moreover they’ll agree on why it sucks.