Free will and ethics?

Debate Room
61

It’s a good question. I was under the impression that free will in the context of religion (as it is often related) is more a tool to distinguish between those that believe in god and those that don’t. Because many major religions have free will as one of the foundations of the belief, “not believing” in free will merely equates to not believing in the religion as it stands. In other words, the question could be alternatively stated as “Do you believe in god?” It’s not a good question to ask anybody, but that’s usually what someone means when they ask it.

I like that many replies here talk about the scientific inquiry into what it means. Although I think it’s worth the time to explore from a scientific perspective, I don’t think it changes much for the religious. Whether our neurons fire seconds before we have the conscious thought or not is at best, missing the point; at worst, distracting.

From the religious perspective, I think the idea gets muddied a lot because it is difficult to rectify the two seemingly contradicting ideas of “being able to make your own decisions” and “nothing can happen without gods intervention”. This l, I think, is what most struggle with. I still do think they are possible though, at least superficially. The main point being made in the biblical sense is that there is a difference between “animals” and “man”. The stories in the Bible work to distinguish them, and to show that there is some essential difference between the two categories. That because men were made in gods image, they stand separate from the rest of the animal kingdom. I think they mean this difference is the Holy Spirit and the free will in which only they were given. That, of course, is all debatable.

Not sure if I’m hitting the mark at all

62

That is a lot of territory and a lot of assertions. How about just one assertion, that man is not like the animals? All evidence I see points to the simple fact that man is part of the animal kingdom.

1 Like
63

I was under the impression that when you hit the mark, the fat lady screams.

2 Likes
64

Speaking of which…
A man comes home from work one day and found a gorilla on his roof. “Well, that’s fucked up,” thought the man. “None of the other houses have gorillas on their roofs,” he thought to himself as he was looking around.

He went inside the house but the constant, “Thump, thump, thump,” of the gorillas feet was annoying. Then the neighbors began calling about all that chest thumping bullshit and asking him to take his pet gorilla and put it in the house. The man tried to explain that it was not his pet and that it was just up there when he came home, but no one was listening. “It’s your house,” they said, “so it’s your gorilla! Do something about it.”

Frustrated, the man didn’t know what to do. BUT! Then he got an idea! The Yellow Pages. “You can find anything in the Yellow Pages.” He recalled hearing that from somewhere.

Sure enough, he opened up the Yellow Pages and right there between God and Guts was Gorilla Removal Service. He called the number and the man on the other end of the phone said he would be right over.

20 minutes later and about 15 phone calls, a little yellow, banana shaped, van pulled into the driveway. On the side of the van were the words, Gary’s Gorilla Removal Service. The home owner went out to greet Gary. The two men shook hands as Gary looked up at the roof. “HooooWeee, he’s a big-one.” “Yes,” said the home owner, “can you get rid of him?” “Well, we’ll see what we can do.”

Gary walked around to the back of the banana van and opened a door. He pulled out a ladder, a long stick, a little dog, a pair of handcuffs, and then he shoved a banana in his pocket. Once that was done, Gary motioned to the home owner to come closer. The home owner approached and Gary slipped him a forty-five magnum pistol. “You know how to use one of these?” Gary asked. “You point that end at the target and you pull this little part here with your finger.”

“What?” Asked the home owner in shock. Are we going to kill the gorilla. "Well, hopefully not. “Here’s what we’re gonna do.”

“Now, I’m gonna lean this here ladder up against the house. Then I’m gonna go up the ladder onto the roof. I’m gonna stand in front of that big ole gorilla, look him straight in the eyes and then pull the banana out of my pocket. When I am sure he is looking at the banana, I am going to throw it high into the air. When the gorilla reaches up to grab the banana, I am going to take this here stick, whack him in the back of the head as hard as I can, and knock him off the roof. You got that so far?”

“Yea.”

“Okay, now, you see this here dog.” “Yea” “Well, this here dog has been trained up special. When that gorilla falls off the roof, this here dog is going to run straight for that gorillas balls. He is going to latch onto those balls and not let go. You followin along?”

“Yea”

“Okay then. When the dog, latches onto the gorilla’s balls, all you gotta do is walk over and put these handcuffs on the gorilla. It’s easy. He will be in so much pain, he won’t even notice you. Then when I get off the roof we will load him in the van. You got all that?”

“Okay…??? But why did you give me this gun?”

"Well, sometimes I get up there on the roof, I toss the banana in the air, I smack the gorilla in the head, and then he throws me off the roof. If the gorilla throws me off the roof I want you to SHOOT THE FUCKING DOG! "

3 Likes
65

[sarcasm]
That is totally insane David!

  1. Well if that was the case, then I’d assume some of the organs are interchangeable, and they aren’t!
    ETA: Oops apparently some organs can be interchanged: Xenotransplantation.

  2. If you were right; I’d expect that humans could use animal blood in their own bodies in a pinch, which is impossible.
    ETA: Oops; seems someone did that hundreds of years ago.

  3. Humans are clearly different from animals because only humans use tools!.
    ETA: Oops, I guess animals use tools too.

  4. Only human express emotions; animals don’t!
    ETA: Oops, it turns out animals have emotions too.

  5. Humans and animals must be different because their DNA is different.
    ETA: Oops, it seems that DNA is just permutations of the same molecules, with the same protein “encodings” for animals and humans.

  6. Humans can be superstitious, animals can not.
    ETA: Oops, I guess animals can be superstitious.

  7. Humans have languages, animals do not.
    ETA: Oops, I guess animals have languages too.

Well David, I guess you just need to have faith that humans aren’t animals. Atheists want to believe that humans are animals because they want to sin!!!
[/sarcasm]

3 Likes