Ecological Sustainability

Debate Room
61

Consider this hypothetical (yet very possible) scenario, using my friend’s dad…

He develops his highly effecient carb, right? Now, he’s just an average working guy who isn’t looking to be the saviour of the planet or anything like that. He lives comfortably, but who wouldn’t want an extra hefty chunk-of-change to help make life a bit easier? So maybe he gets his idea patented and takes it to a manufacturer, and the representative looks at his idea and sees it has potential. Obviously, the automotive places all work hand-in-hand with the oil companies, right? Meaning they know the oil companies will not be too fond of the idea of people using less of their product. Therefore, the nice representative tells him, “Hey, I like your idea. Shows great potential. Tell ya what, if you try to develop and produce this on your own, it will take a bunch of time and licensing and legal fees and all kinds of other headaches before you ever see any profit. Our company, though, already has all that stuff in place. How about I do you a favor and save you all that hassle? My boss is willing to pay you a very generous amount of money to buy your patent. You and your family will instantly have enough money to live very comfortably, while our company has the resources to refine your idea and bring it to its full potential. How does that sound?” Well, golly gee, what a fantastic offer! Hell-to-the-YES! Give me the money! In which case the patent soon finds itself deep in a dark basement, locked in a file cabinet marked “DO NOT TOUCH”.

Or, what about the other direction?.. What if my friend’s dad did not accept the offer? Oh, that’s easy… “Well, sir, I have to say I’m disappointed with your decision. I was really hoping we could help each other out here. But I understand that you must do what you think is right. I hope you have some really good lawyers at your disposal, though. Oh, and do you happen to know any of the heads of various licensing departments within your county/state? Because getting an idea like yours pushed through the system on your own can be an incredibly expensive and time-consuming challenge. Not trying to sound discouraging, sir, but I have seen individuals get totally ruined and devastated by such endeavors. But, hey, I admire your spirit and determination. Go get 'em, tiger! Please, let me know how it works out for you.”

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62

Want to see how companies use black ops tactics to make sure no one ever sees new technology they don’t want out there? Look up the Texas patent scam, there are thousands of shell companies who sue startups for using existing technology, like social media or smartphones. The lawsuits are frivolous obviously, but you still have to pay to fight it, plus you have to show up in a Texas courthouse to represent your case. All while running your startup or pitching your new idea. I’ll have to find the documentary I watched on this, but it’s all “legal” and insane.

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This is exactly what I’m driving at.

One heck of a missed money opportunity on dad’s part.

Either that, or the major maker decision maker would have told him that Jimmy Backwoods from Wherever, NC got to Detroit first with the same (subsequently suppressed) idea.

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64

Foxes and rabbits. There is no escaping the natural state of affairs. Perhaps the next time around things will be better.

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65

Sure, obviously there will be a next time…right in there with an afterlife…

66

I don’t really have an MGO avocado in this fight, I will be long gone.

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67

And therein lies yet another tactic. This one just happens to save the company a handsome payout.

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I don’t need to. For better or worse, I am able to put myself in the mindset of people at that level and determine how I would handle various situations with the resources and influence they have at their disposal. If I had no conscious, I could probably get a pretty damn good “trouble shooting” job with some of those corporations.

Edit to add: Although, in all fairness and reality, they have been playing that game and refining their techniques for so long now that the methods I might employ are already far outdated.

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69

How wondrously sweet of you!

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I think fusion is the key to our future. Unfortunately, it’s been “ten years away” for the last seventy years…

What we need is a national or international effort on the scale of the Manhattan Project, or Project Apollo. We’re spending billions on things like the JWST and LHC, and those things do increase our scientific knowledge, which is good, but do nothing to help with the major issue of energy usage (what we do have is running out and causing climate change).

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I have been following the construction and science of the ITER project.

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I’m waiting for hydrogen. Been interested in that since the mid 80s.

Our technology and ability is far in advance of our collective maturity. Perhaps it’s because the scientific knowledge came fast once the dominos started to fall - but it’s difficult to move humans en masse out of a “industrial mindset” (and some groups go further back :laughing:).

We’ve had cultural and class differences for so long, folks have a hard time accepting “redefining” themselves.

For eg (I don’t believe this nugget :wink:)
Hard work will make you successful. Bullshit. Work smart. The right industry. The lucky investment at the right time or property market in your favor.

Anyhoo - nothing here in the back woods I can do with this old body. So I care for my property. Educate the boys. Enjoy and love life. Suck it dry. Responsibly (:stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:)

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73

We are not powerless. We all have a vote.

In Australia our corrupt fossil fuel bribe taking incumbents were booted losing seats not to the “other Party” but to a whole load of Independent Women. (they deserve the capitalisation). We refer to them as the “Teals” as they are neither Red, Blue or Green. They are focused on climate change and social justice.
They took seats in mainly “blue” conservative areas that had been held by neo cons for upwards of 56 years in one case.

This week legislation passed as a starting point for zero emissions soon. In addition for the first time in Australias history a coal mine will be refused permission.

YOU and your VOTE will change the landscape. You do have a weapon. Your VOICE, Your COMMITMENT, your VOTE.

Check your candidates credentials, if they are deniers, don’t vote for them. Changing the voter landscape frightens them, you will soon see action like we have here Down Under. .

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74

I know Wind Power is a farce and so is Solar Energy. Both create as much pollution as burning gas and neither does anything to solve our landfill problem. What do you imagine solar panels and giant wind turbines are made from? So far, all of our solutions are as stupid as ‘Recycling.’ A moronic government program instituted so the tree huggers could feel like they are doing something to help the environment while doing NOTHING AT ALL.

When I grew up we had two aluminum trash cans. Aluminum is 100% recyclable. There were two trash trucks. One for trash and one for garbage.

Now? Four trash cans. Black for trash, Green for garden and yard shit, Blue is for recycling paper, Yellow is for recycling plastics. Four big trash cans that are NOT RECYCLABLE. (Figure that one out.) Instead of one trash truck, there are now 3. More gas, more rubber tires, more pollution. We also have a whole new industry that does not pay for itself and relies on government subsidies.

Recycling glass, break it up, melt it down, remove all impurities, (with power hungry machines) Ship the used glass to bottle manufacturers (With trucks) Send the sludge, the shit removed from the glass, to the landfill. (With trucks) Where do you think pollution is being remedied. It’s NOT.

Recycling paper. Another Bad Idea. Also subsidized by the government. With the same problem as glass. In addition; all paper eventually ends up in the land fill. It is not infinitely reusable like metal. “The recycling takes its toll and after about five to seven times the paper fibers lose their strength and end up being thrown into landfill. And the leftover sludge of ink, chemicals and water is either buried in a landfill or burned at the paper mill for energy.”
https://www.worldcentric.com/journal/problems-with-paper#:~:text=All%20tree-based%20paper%20is%20ecologically%20damaging&text=The%20recycling%20takes%20its%20toll,the%20paper%20mill%20for%20energy.

The only truly recyclable materials we have are metals. Dump them in the furnace and use them. Simple. Metal can be used over and over and over again. And by using it, we need less mining. But what do we do with our metal? We export it. In 2020, the United States exported some 16.9 million metric tons of steel scrap. We aren’t interested in RECYCLING. Not Really.

What does recycling do? It saves our landfill. Nothing more. It means that we can put more toxic shit into the ground for a longer period of time before we have to find a new place to dump our toxic shit. That is all recycling means. This idea that we are going to somehow save the environment is just an idea that I do not see as long as the population keeps growing and our attempts to solve the problem are a horrible as the ‘recycling’ idea.

What do you imagine we are going to do with all the solar batteries and car batteries in 20 years? Let’s just hope we find a solution before that time gets here?

Something bad is about to happen. Just my sense of things. And lucky for me, I’m not going to be around.

Damn! I forgot to rag on Plastic; Only a fraction of which is recyclable. After you sort it, it gets sorted again. Same as glass and paper; Chemicals are used to remove the colors and chemicals, machines cut it up, trucks ship it, it can not be reused forever, the sludge is poured into the landfill.

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oh right Cog. Lets just give up and go back to the fifties. Coal smoke, grime, baths once a fucking week. Aye lad they were t’ best of times, reet?

Recycling does work, plastics are being recycled for all sorts of uses nowadays including roadways, house building, toys, and a myriad more. Glass bottles are back in my state with a 10c deposit. The sold back to the original mfr or user for REUSE. I would love to see the same system introduced for wine bottles. I could keep a small winery supplied for years on my weekly consumption.

You are correct about Lithium Batteries and metal recycling. Moronic to send finished metals overseas
for reuse. Much cheaper to open manufacturing sites that can use them locally which, again is starting to happen in my State.

It is a long, complicated fight, but it is for our planet, our children’s futures. Use your VOTE.

Oh and tell Cog to just fuck off when he starts his rants, His rolling pin needs adjusting.

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76

You missed the point entirely. The FACTS are in: " Chemical recycling is not viable. It has failed and will continue to fail for the same down-to-earth, real-world reasons that the conventional mechanical recycling of plastics has consistently failed. Worse yet, its toxic emissions could cause new harm to our environment, climate, and health.May 30, 2022"

THE RECYCLING INDUSTRY IS COLLAPSING

WE CAN’T RECYCLE OUR WAY OUT OF OUR PLASTIC PROBLEM

Plastic Recycling “Does Not Work, It Never Will Work,” Says Report

U.S. has a 94% failure-to-recycle rate

How Big Oil Misled The Public Into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

RECYCLING MYTH

We Cannot Recycle Our Way Out Of The Plastic Crisis, Warns WWF

You didn’t actually think I came to this discussion unarmed, did you? The fact that you don’t know what is going on, is just the fact that you don’t know what is going on. No one said anything about returning to coal, that is your strawman assertion. The fact is, RECYCLING does not work and is not working.

““The plastics industry must stop lying to the public about plastics recycling. It does not work, it never will work, and no amount of false advertising will change that,” says Judith Enck, President of Beyond Plastics and former U.S. E.P.A. Regional Administrator.”

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Re: Plastic recycling

@Old_man_shouts_at_cl

So, as I have said before, I don’t even pretend to know how things work in Australia. Therefore, I cannot even begin to lecture you on what you should do to help change your country. With that in mind, I can tell you from first-hand experience at having lived here my ENTIRE LIFE that the realm of “plastic recycling” is a joke. Yes, for a few short years a long while back, it was all the rage. People even had trash cans outside their homes specifically for plastics. NOW, though? Well, let me put it this way. About a year or so ago I noticed how many plastic items I was regularly taking to the dump within our trash. So I started sorting the plastic items from our daily trash, and even made a special bin for it outside to easier allow it to accumulate. Once it got to a sizeable load, I started looking for a recycle facility where I could take it. Guess what… ZERO luck. I called EVERYWHERE. Even contacted the area landfills to ask if they knew of any plastic recycling facilities. Nope. No clue. Therefore, all that plastic that has accumulated over the past several months will now be making its way little-by-little to our local landfill. Oh, joy.

The only two things we keep separate now are aluminum cans and scrap metal. And I make a trip to the scrap yard with those maybe once or twice a year, depending on how quickly it piles up.

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Thanks Cog, it seems though you have inadvertently removed the rolling pin and allowed some sense to come through.

The Plastic Soup Foundation is firmly against the microplastics engendered by so much plastic being used ( and unnecessarily ending up) in landfill, cosmetics etc. I 100% support their aims.

In Western Australia where the consumption of “single use” plastic bags and soon all “single use” plastics will be outlawed seems to have passed you by and it is by legislation and education ( as in so many things) supported by the PSF and other scientific bodies that will eventually stop this poisoning of the world’s oceans.

I am truly sorry that you and Tin Man seem to have given up on trying. as individuals, to do what you can and seem to be content to fester in a fug of polluted depression.

Regarding plastic recycling in your part of the world Tin Man the results seem on a par to be expected with many parts of regional USA when it comes to progressive policies and installations. It seems that the solution may be, once again in the ballot box to remedy the kind of primitive thinking that holds back human progress.

Pick the candidates with the right environmental policies, lobby for them, volunteer for them. It actually works. I know I have been active in pressing for supermarkets to cease overpackaging of fruit and vegetables and it seems that our unceasing efforts are going to pay off in WA, maybe soon in the rest of the continent.

Nearly all our States and Territories have enacted or are considering bans on plastic single use bags. It is a small step but at least its a step in the right direction.

Use your VOTE.

Update: the Australian Woolworths chain have taken plastic bags away from checkouts. Woolworths and Big W are phasing out reusable plastic shopping bags. Here's what that means for shoppers - ABC News

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IMO this is one of the biggest problems int the US. Due to weird voting laws and such, many elected officials are not directly linked to citizen voters. It always amazes me that the head of state is not directly connected to the citizen voter. Up here in Canada our Prime Minister must win a seat or else he can not serve. Even Trudeau knows that his political future is directly tied to pleasing his voters.

When public opinion becomes strong enough, our politicians pull their heads of of the food trough and pay heed. And this is a critical phase in dealing with the ecology. Without the political will, there will not be the money or laws to ensure change.

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Abso-fuckin-lotely, Pennsylvania is a prime example. Some ludicrously rigged voting maps here. Now we have Dr.Oz running for a senate position for Pennsylvania and he’s from New Jersey. It’s bizarro land here anymore. It feels hopeless most days.