Oh I most certainly won’t be holding my breath. Religion has been around for tens of thousands of years because the average moron NEEDS it and, unfortunately, likely always will.
I agree with most of what you said, except the calling them morons part.
For most of my 20’s I felt as you did. As I got older I picked up on a little more. Now I consider them more as victims.
Take a child, just learning how to be. By natures design we learn from our peers, our parents most of all. Now a child before getting critical thinking skills and learning to think for themselves, has likely every major important peer telling about this narrative of the world. Highly effective.
Toss in self protecting bias, cognitive dissonance, the threat of total loss of family/community, a religion that has had 1000’s of years of practice to spread, and oh, all to often the threat of death or grievous bodily harm?
Yeah for a lot of them, it is unthinkable that their god idea is not the reality. Even though there is zero evidence to tie such thoughts to reality.
Religion has been around for thousands of years but in different forms serving different needs and for different reasons.
I feel like a history rant.
The very earliest forms of nature gods must have been absolutely necessary for our puny ignorant ancestors to deal with the very nasty world they lived in. Believing they could somehow influence the impersonal forces of nature must have provided them with a little more comfort and kept them a little more sane and explained dreams and visions and hinted at a spiritual world. When faced with great difficulties humans nearly always deal with the anxiety by doing something, no matter how ineffectual, like rituals to give them the illusion that they have some control.
When agriculture began replacing hunting, and urbanisation saw the rise of large settlements and the establishment of cities, the gods were imagined as rulers and warriors just like human kings and commanders. The gods were examples of achievement and ability but like lusty humans they required satisfaction. All the knowledge gained about crops, animal husbandry, engineering (buildings, irrigation, boats and seacraft, ceramics, metallurgy etc) were so important, the methods and procedures required became quasi religious rituals in themselves.
For an example the ancient Greek pottery makers had a range of lesser gods that controlled every aspect of pottery making from the raw clay to the finished product that the potter could pray or sacrifice to. There was one particular little god to whom sacrifices could be made to ensure the pottery did not get the tiny hairline cracks in their glazing kilns. He was a hard god to please despite his size, as these hairline cracks are almost impossible to avoid without the most precise and scientific measurements and precautions in glaze prepartion and firing. The same desperate needs were required for early metallurgy. Copper collected from the surface of the earth can be beaten or melted for moulding, but the copper from deeper below the surface needs to be smelted in specific ways over specially prepared fires to burn off impureties and this was just with one kind of metal. The relatively simple act of brazing ores must have taken generations to accomplish with a dedicated adherence to preparation and method. The dawn of the Bronze Age might have been seen as more a religious revelation than an industrial revolution.
So the gods were associated with good fortune, success gained through ritual and appeasement. Failure to acknowledge a god could result in being forgotten or ignored by that god and the risk of failure in all endeavours could result in more than just failure, but possible poverty and death. Pantheism allowed for gods in all areas of human activities. Abstract qualities like loyalty, honour, bravery were qualities inspired by the mythical acts of the gods, and acceptable traits were encouraged by the examples of heroes and leaders who were seen to possess favour of the gods.
With the rise of civilisation cults and temples were consecrated, but there was no division between gods, one could worship as many gods as one pleased. Priests and priestesses of one god’s temple could worship in another god’s cult as mere supplicants to ensure good fortune.
Then came the concept of monotheism which centred on a single god with a single set of rules and focussed intensely on the worthiness of the individual. All the rest of mankinds activities fell under the control of science, politics, humanities, but the single jealous gods controlled the mind/soul and instead of provoking gods to do our bidding for successful outcomes in the physical world, a single god came to control destinies in a supernatural future.
We have a great advantage over past generations, living in wealthier countries that enjoy certain political freedoms. Religions have served purposes. It was a great place holder until we were capable of living together and understanding the science behind the natural world.
It would currently appear that many people are unable or unwilling to live without a monotheistic god. It was a French philosopher who warned it was better to let believers continue with their faith, one with which we atheists were already familiar, because deprived of their faith there would be no telling if they might not find something else to beleive in which might be altogether worse and completely unpredictable.
The concept of gods, spirits and the supernatural have always served a purpose. The current dominant monotheistic religions continue to provide peace of mind and comfort for a majority of people no matter how ridiculous, or cruel, it appears to we atheists. It serves no purpose to denigrate believers. Some of the most intelligent people in history have been, and even in my personal sphere, are practising Christians, Jews and Muslims. Perhaps in time when that purpose, that need, is over taken by a less insidious regime, religion might pass. I wouldn’t be counting on that for a very long time to come.
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An unfounded prejudice.
Over a lifetime, I’ve met thousands of people, all over the world. I have never been able to tell if a person I’ve just met is a believer or an atheist. The believers I’ve known,including my parents, and extended family were actually quite bright. (OK I have a chronically Catholic cousin who is a bit of a dill AND quite immoral in business)
I’ve never noticed that atheists are generally brighter or better people in any way than believers any brighter.
Seems to me that the implicit idea that atheists are somehow ‘better than’ believers is no more than a risible prejudice .
just stay healthy so you can die in good health and fit without the need to seek anyone care of you as you grow old, nothing better than this.
I totally agree with you.
Don’t presume to tell me what I meant by that statement, because I meant exactly what I said and, at no point, did I say “all theists are stupid and all atheists are smart”, any more than I said “all atheists are pedantic debate-mongers who will try to dissect and nit-pick any and everything they can, just to have a pathetic excuse to deride someone”.
You see, none of those statements are true, though it could be argued that at least one of them is somewhat accurate, in the general sense.
In the future, find someone who cares, to do your nit-picking on. All it will do, with me, is get you put on the pay-no-mind list.
mo·ron | \ ˈmȯr-ˌän \
1: a very stupid person
stu·pid | \ ˈstü-pəd , ˈstyü- \
1a: slow of mind : OBTUSE
b: given to unintelligent decisions or acts : acting in an unintelligent or careless manner
c: lacking intelligence or reason : BRUTISH
LMFAO
Both Of my parents died in care.Dad in 2006 at 87. Mum in 2019 at 92.My father dies of pneumonia, but had arteriosclerosis, which made him demented.
My mother was in care for only a year eacause she had a become too frail for my sister to care for her at home.
I’ll be 73 in October. I’m divorced,no kids and live alone. One of my activities is a mens group, where the oldest are 81 and 83.and look two decades younger. I also know bunch of fit and health people in their 80’s and 90’s.
Staying healthy may protect you from some lifestyle diseases such as obesity, type 2 diabetes, certain forms of heart disease. It will not protect you from inherited conditions and illnesses such as; autism,type 1 diabetes, a range of eye diseases,. Parkinson’s, motor neuron disease, and a range of fatal childhood diseases.–these are only the ones I can think of right now, but its a long list. The diseases now controlled by vaccinations once killed millions. Nothing to do with how healthy they were
IMO as a rule of thumb, the best way of living a very long life is to choose your parents carefully, but there are no guarantees.
I was responding to what you said, not to what you think you said.
The full sentence reads as if you’re saying religion has been around for thousands of years because those who need it are morons. Not convinced that there enough morons in a given society to perpetuate religion.
The sentence is making an unfounded claims about religious people even if it’s a relatively small number.
If you don’t want your post to be semantically dismantled, be more precise in your use of language.
Muppet
I think I said exactly what I said: The average moron needs it (religion). You are the one who seems to think I said something else when not only did I say exactly what I intended but meant exactly what I said.
If you want to turn it into hyperbole and take it to mean that all religious people are morons or that all of the people who need religion are morons, that’s on you. It is not, however, what I said. It is, though, the textbook definition of a straw man fallacy…
“The average moron needs religion”
“YOU’RE SAYING ALL PEOPLE WHO NEED RELIGION ARE MORONS!”
Instead of building that straw man, though, you could have simply asked something like “To clarify, do you think everyone who needs religion is a moron?” to which I would have replied something to the effect of “Actually, no. My father is one of the smartest people I have ever known and he is a devout christian who goes to church every Sunday, without fail. What I do believe, however, is that the average person, who has trouble rationalizing, and making informed decisions, needs religion…for a number of reasons.”
This could have created a rational discussion in which we might have been able to share ideas and help one another grow. Instead, you straw manned and wanted to pick a fight. One that I am, from this point on, choosing not to engage in because I have more important things to do than watch you make irrational assumptions about things you think I meant, instead of asking rational questions to determine what I actually intended.
Like I said, don’t presume to tell me what I said. If you’re unclear on it, ask for some clarification.
Assumption is the mother of all fuck ups. Take the adult approach, now, and just admit you fucked up. Then move on.
And resorting to ad hominem…A rational person would be ashamed of themselves.
A rational discussion when you insinuate that 90+ % of everyone who ever lived is a moron in your opening statement? That my religious relatives are morons? That my religious friends are morons?
Again, you want a rational discussion when you write:
A lot of atheist regulars here were once religious, (some very devout,) themselves, you are calling them morons too. Labeling people as very stupid, then accusing us of “straw manned” and picking a fight, those tactics may work elsewhere, not here, we will call you out on it.
Some people did ask for clarification. And now you are labeling it as an “attack” on you.
Heh. Followed by:
Wow.
Saying we made assumptions and it is “the mother of all fucks ups” Then saying we are not taking the adult approach and we should just admit we “fucked up.” Then drop it and “move on.”
Then saying other people are doing the ad hominem attacks on you. And that we should be ashamed. Where does that put you, by your own writing? I am guessing you are blind to it.
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Agrees with Logic! You certainly did not set the atmosphere for discourse. If we do not tolerate such nonsense from theists why would we tolerate it from atheists?
No.
I was a christian. A mormon. With a priesthood. You’re “calling me out” because you’re spoiling for a fight. There aren’t enough theists here to keep you interested so the forum is imploding…Something I noted before the big hack that made me step away.
You have no theist opposition so you just hop on anything you don’t like. Fun times.
Not a single person asked a single question. You are entirely wrong.
Ad Hominem translates to “To the person”. I wasn’t attacking the person, I was attacking his behavior. That is not ad hominem.
When I decided to come back here and have a look around, I was immediately struck by the fact that there’s a ton of in-fighting. It seems that, at any given time, there’s only 1 or maybe 2 self-identified theists here, along with a bunch of theist trolls and then you lot. Because you don’t have enough theists to feed on, you’re eating each other. It’s cute…And the best part of it is that your logic and rationality are suffering, as a result.
And, with that, I will leave you all to your self-slaughter. There’s no good feeding here and I refuse to just become a troll so…Have fun imploding.
No, he is calling you out because you said something utterly and completely stupid. I called you on it above as well. Perhaps I was too polite, which is not exactly like me, but logic is spot on with his comments.
Infighting my fucking ass… Don’t let the door handle hit you where the good lord split you on your way out! Bye…
Hey there! it is my first day. I am humbled to be among my fellow thinkers, my kin, at last.
You ask an interesting question that I am sure has troubled many an atheist on their journey, that is the ‘seemingly’ perfectly rational fear of death.
To know that one must, without fail, eventually die is as far as it gets from a comfortable feeling. I believe it is indeed one of the main reasons religions were created, because human beings fear the unknown, they cannot come to terms with their own mortality. They MUST live forever. Somehow. This cant be all there is.
Unfortunately, there is no ‘comforting alternative’ to the reality and finality of death, and Atheism is definitely not the place to look for it my friend. The way I see things, the privilege of having been given the chance to live at all is satisfying enough and to know that this is all there is, makes me value my time here on earth even more.
I am sorry, but theism and atheism are completely antithetical in my view, and have always been at vicious odds. There is no ‘compromise’ or ‘middle ground’ we can conjure as truth seekers, (especially in matters of life and death), to try and entice the religious among us to consider Atheism as a viable option for them. THAT would go against what it means to be an atheist in the first place.
Bravo terraphon!
Hey, it’s my first day and im really enthusiastic about being here, so, at the risk of sounding like a random fanboy noob, I applaud the sophistication of your cognitive style and agree with you on all counts.
Hahahaha. Scientific method involves “peer review” - can’t take the heat by all means leave the kitchen!
We challenge each other often - hasn’t spoiled our “kin-ship” old and new alike.
I’m not here for an “echo chamber”…
RE: When I decided to come back here and have a look around, I was immediately struck by the fact that there’s a ton of in-fighting. It seems that, at any given time, there’s only 1 or maybe 2 self-identified theists here, along with a bunch of theist trolls and then you lot. Because you don’t have enough theists to feed on, you’re eating each other. It’s cute…And the best part of it is that your logic and rationality are suffering, as a result.
True though.
We are a global minority on the rise. We need that solidarity. If we are going to consider ourselves far removed from theists, infighting as they do is not going to help that.
Oh cool. You do not think it is 90+ percent of the world is morons. How does that work with your original statement?
“Religion has been around for tens of thousands of years because the average moron NEEDS it and, unfortunately, likely always will.”
Do you take back all of the above that you wrote? Where is at? You left it ambiguous, “average moron.”
Should we just not take anything you write seriously?
These boards are labeled debate. There is another subforum for atheist to just chat. And surprise surprise, there is very little “fighting” going on there.
Okay, re-read some of the other post. Did not see any questions asked, cool, I will happily admit I am wrong that no one asked questions. I own my mistake.
I do not hold my breath that you are capable of realizing just how hypocritical (imo) you have been in several post here where you accuse us of ad hominem attacks, then turn around and do the same with language like “mother of all fuck ups” telling us we should be ashamed, and we should drop it and move on at your say so.
Instead of handling possible criticism to your idea "Religion has been around for tens of thousands of years because the average moron NEEDS it and, unfortunately, likely always will.”
Instead you accuse of not being adult like, that we did: “the mother of all fuck ups.” And we should be ashamed and move on, and you are the ultimate authority and insight on this. (Wow that reminds me of theistic thinking…)
This is why I like the written format, you cannot escape what you wrote.
Let me get this straight:
You accuse several of us of the following:
- Turning what you say into hyperbole
- Not making rational discussion
- Doing strawman attacks on you
- picking fights with you
- Making lots of assumptions
- Not adult like
- Doing ad hominem attacks
- that we should be ashamed
- accused us all of “a ton of in-fighting” on a debate forum.
- we feed on each other. Our logic and rationality is suffering. (But you alone is not?)
- that we will have self slaughter. And that we will “implode.”
While, I can only speak for myself:
- I disagreed on calling “them” morons.
- questioned the rationality on calling 90+ percent of the world morons.
- pointed out calling religious people morons also means calling a lot of ex-theist here also morons at one point in their lives
- Then asking you to consider your own writing and ask yourself how ad hominem attacks against you compare to your own writing.
I now rest my case and leave everyone’s writing here for the patient reader to decide for themselves who is doing what.
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