Similar perhaps, not the same. There is a common belief that most if not all myths contain some truth. This may be true sometimes, but as general principle is demonstrably untrue. It seems there may be some truth behind the myths of King Arthur and of Robin Hood.
.A fascinating book from feminist historian Marina Warner. “Joan Of Arc”. Showing the blending of fact and myth.
Her book “Alone of all Her Sex; The myth and The Cult of The Virgin Mary” is even better—compared with what is actually written in the New testament, the church invented almost everything people think they know about Mary, The Mother Of God and Queen of Heaven.
You could ask them to demonstrate any objective evidence for their claims, then point out it’s roundly contradicted by well established scientific facts, which are supported by all the objective evidence, evolution, age of the earth, genetics etc etc…
Or you could simply avoid seeking out pointless arguments with people who are utterly closed minded.
@David_Killens Indeed. The story of Jesus, as portrayed in the New Testament, was taken from the local mythologies at the time, and hence, the similarities to them.
I have a small sticker on my door issued by the Legal Service Commission which says; NO SALES PEOPLE.DO NOT KNOCK. There is picture of a knocking fist with a line through it.
A couple of years ago, some JW’s knocked on my door. I asked the bloke if he had seen the sign. He allowed that he had. I said “It applies to you because you are selling religion and I don’t want any” and closed the door.
My dad used to turn the hose on such people .Ah, happy days.
The last time we had religion peddlers knocking on our door, it was a couple of mormons. The wife hosed them down verbally, and they went away with the tail between their legs. I was kind of miffed because I didn’t even get a chance to ask them about holy mormon underwear or ask for a free Book of Mormon (no, I’m not going to order it online).
Don’t expect logical responses, you won’t get many (any). I have heard fundamentalist Christians claim they have been brainwashed by god and rejoice in the fact. Anything that defies reality (talking snakes, magic Egyptians, whales with indigestion) are explained away as “God can do anything”. Contradictions are smoothed over with “God will explain it to me when I get to heaven”. But - there is hope. I just caught up with a couple who were in the same cult as me, we hadn’t seen them for over 28 years, but like us, they found their way out. In my case, the cogs began to turn after many debates with non-theists when I was out on the street god bothering folk. I had quite a few people give me a good reason for thought, but they blew it all by telling me what an idiot I was (no argument there - but it just confirmed to me that I was being persecuted for righteous sake). It was the logical arguments of non-emotional atheists/non-theists that broke through the massive amount of bullshit that I had surrendered to. I am forever grateful to them. Be calm, try not to laugh, and be patient - you just never know.
What kind of arguments was it that made the greatest impact on you, and made you think?
For now, I have decided that I am just going to refuse to reply to the stuff they cut-and-paste from the JW Ministry of Propaganda. Instead, I call them out for posting 100% cut and paste-jobs instead of formulating something of their own. And I try to document it by finding the source (which is mostly jw.org) through search engines.
My change from devout Catlic to agnostic to atheist was a slow process over 20 years. I went looking for ‘spiritual meaning’ and found none.
There was no epiphany. I had been referring to myself as agnostic for many years. One day I realised I no longer believed in anything spiritual, and was actually an atheist.
I came across the term ‘agnostic atheist’ over a decade ago on an atheist forum. I use it because it’s accurate. It also pisses off and confuses the more ignorant believers, which I admit I enjoy.
Yes I know, I’m a very bad man, forgetting the late, great Frankie Howerd’s admonition; “It’s wicked to mock the afflicted”
A1.5 minute example of one of the last British Musical hall comedians
Sounds similar to my own process. Grew up with a fairly devout lutheran mother (and a dad who I suspect really was agnostic, but who didn’t want to publically admit it). It wasn’t until university that I started reading about opposing views. Even as a child I had my doubts, and reading the Bible didn’t reassure me, as i started asking myself lots of new questions about all the inconsistencies and contradictions in that book. But what really was the ultimate clincher for me was that I studied physics and mathematics, and started reading about evolution (Dawkins, Gould, etc.) This provided me with a self-contained model for explaining the world, and religion was no longer needed. I estimate this whole process took around 10 years, going from someone who believed in (a) god and spiritual stuff to an agnostic atheist. Today I have moved even further away from religion, in the direction of anti-theism.
I’m neither anti theist or anti religion, in principle. (but anti organised religion***) I truly don’t care about the personal superstitions of others unless they get in my face.
However, I strongly oppose politicians who allow their religious beliefs to influence policy. EG we had a catholic PM who blocked recognition of gay marriage. Our current PM is a happy clapper who prays during a crisis. I have no objection to prayer “as well as” but deeply resent prayer “instead of”
*** to describe organised religion as parasitic and harmful to society is a good start.
Yes, that’s exactly what has moved me in the anti-theism direction. People can lead their lives the way they want to, and believe all the stupid shit they do for all I care, but the moment they bring it out in public and want to ram it down my throat, I consider it “fair game”, to be criticised and argued against. And this also goes for all other types of superstition and anti-scientific, anti-intellectual shit as well (alternative medicine, anti-vax, creationism, anthropogenic climate change denial, flat-earth, etc).
Take them completely out of their comfort zone and remove their one main weapon they use to support their crap.
As Whitefire said, make them think.
I watch many atheist call in show videos, and I have witnessed many times when a very committed theist is presented with an argument or scenario outside of their comfort zone, they start making funny stuttering sounds as their brains attempt to find some way of evading the question.
And one very tough question they fail at is if you ask them “what do you think? Not what your religion tells you, what do you, a person believe?”
Now that will frighten them, and make them hate you.
People unused to thinking get really cranky/defensive/aggressive when anyone so much as tries to get them to think. That reminds me of someone, but I can’t remember who.
You have to marvel at anyone who thinks they possess absolute truth, but can’t see that the dictionary definitions of two words overlap, and are not therefore mutually exclusive.
I test my understanding of words all the time, by seeing how close I can get to the dictionary definition from memory.
It was also handy when a precocious grandchild would ask what something meant.
I never ever challenge anyone’s interpretation of a word without first checking the dictionary, it’s a bad habit to assume you know better.
I’m always stunned when people define a word in a strident way, and they are demonstrably wrong. Then double down as @vicillinden did when challenged, and rather than admit a slightly embarrassing error, came up with the astonishing and cringeworthy claim that “dictionaries do not contain word definitions”.
It took a few seconds before I could close my open mouth, but he still tried to defend both claims. I’ll never understand that mentality.
The most powerful one came from a fellow Christian. We were out flip charting (using a visual aid to accuse all people of being sinners - Ray Comforts material). One of the questions was “Have you ever told a lie”? The guy I was witnessing to replied “Yes”, and then asked if there was ever a time when to lie was the moral thing to do? My reply was “Yes”. Nazi Germany, Jewish folk hidden in your house, Nazi ask’s “any Jews inside”? The obvious answer to me was to lie to the nazis and say “No”. The bloke seemed satisfied and managed to escape my overtures. A Christian who was flip charting with me accused me of encouraging people to lie . I asked him what he would do if he was hiding his Jewish wife and child and a Nazi asked him the same question. His response was “I would tell the truth and trust God !”. That was the beginning of the end for me - it was the first inkling of how insane I and my fellow believers had become. I am ashamed to say I didn’t abandon faith then and there - it took another 6 years, but it certainly put me on the road to partial sanity.
My ex wife went to a convent school. One day they were discussing Saint Maria Goretti, an 11 year old who resisted and was raped so badly she died. With her dying breath she forgave her rapist.
Apparently the nun said “Oh, I’d rather die than be raped”. My ex reported that she said “Then you are a fool”. Not bad for a 12 year old.
