Well if this is directed to my view then it’s a strawman arguement, I never made that point and nor would I.
I simply stated biological women should be entitled to their own ‘safe spaces’ as granted by the law (equality act) and it should just be respected, a common curtesy of sorts.
That is likely a very accurate assessment, however, it does not mean we cannot strive to be respectful to biological women.
It’s no different to not going into a womens changing room or a womens only gym etc…
I get that and respect that, but for the record everyone else dog piled on a conversation I was having with Sheldon, but funnily enough made my point.
That being, these days it seems almost impossible to have a reasonable debate without having your point of view twisted and misconstrued… to have various fallacies thrown at you.
All I said was that my politics are ‘mostly’ left leaning or what is considered left leaning i.e. agree with abortion rights, believe in 2 state solution to palestine (and yes, it is 100% genocide) and so on… though that said, the whole left/right thing I find fucking ridiculous, I personally always vote for whos policies aliign with my interests/beliefs.
Just that really, I don’t believe trans women are women in the same way you do.
You appear to view it from how someone gender identfiies, which is fine.
I view it from biological sex.
That is the only difference here, that said I would still treat trans men/women with the same empathy I would as anyone else for their plighy, it cannot be easy by any stretch of the imagination.
And again, my point regarding womens ‘safe spaces’ was a view in which we ‘ought’ to respect their wishes to have a single sex space, I don’t feel that it is an outrageous demand.
I have empathy for their wishes but not respect. It’s understandable but not supported by actual facts on the ground – rather it’s based on unexamined assumptions and beliefs, many of them originating in religion ultimately, even for those who aren’t practicing believers. What I should do with that empathy is gently and kindly educate them, but they are not interested in being confused with facts, by and large. Not unless and until they have a trans child of their own, and likely as not, not even then. What they are interested in is demonizing all perceived threats, crushing all deviance from their norms, etc. I cannot and do not respect that.
I think part of the problem here is the assumption that gender, sexuality and roles are rooted in biology in ways that they aren’t. They ironically ARE rooted in biology, just not the superficial private parts that people happen to sport. It is deeper than that, rooted in some combination probably of psyche, hormones, genes, gene expression, etc. that we don’t fully understand yet. So we’re at a place right now with the trans community where we just have to believe their experience and support them in it, but people are hung up on, e.g, a trans woman still having (ore even used to have, if they can afford the downstairs surgery) a penis. It is understandable to an extent, but moronic, to be fixated on that, sorry. And again, I’m speaking generically, I have no idea if that’s what you’re fixating on, I am addressing the general case, which is full of demonization, ad hominem assaults, and gratuitous cruelty. I don’t sense that coming from you FWIW.
If I read this correctly, you just said that you were willing to help reduce one group’s feelings of insecurity by discriminating against another group. I’m pretty sure that’s not what you want to have happen, but it is what you are advocating.
And to what purpose? There isn’t a real security issue here. It’s all in someone’s head.
Whilst I’d imagine it is likely true in the US (I would imagine many non believers would say they believe in order to gain the weight of the conservative right which as we all know is predominately christian) that is still a hasty generalization.
We cannoy possibly know the true answer to this, but I respect your opinion.
Agreed, but even external sexual parts in most instances are fairly damn accurate.
But yes, we can go through various biological points, including chromosomes.
This is where I would disagree, I do not just believe people who state an apparent experience.
You can ask me to respect it, be kind to it, have empathy for it and 100% I will, of course, any good human ought too!
But you shouldn’t just believe people because they something is so.
I’m sorry if that comes across as harsh, it’s not intended to be, this is simply how I was raised, which is to question absolutely everything.
It is not something I’m fixated on and never have been, In fact I think throughout this entire thread I don’t believe I’ve said anything that would lead one to believe I was ‘fixated’ on anything at all.
Again, all I had initially said and I’m more then happy to reiterate for clarity… I have many views that would appear to be left leaning, but some that are likely considered right leaning, for example… women should be entitled to their ‘safe spaces’ and by safe space I’ll again echo this… the equality act given to biological females under law in the UK (no idea if there is similar in the US or elsewhere) and this simple right ‘ought’ to be respected, as in to be accepted as a basic human right.
For the record as well, I’ve never mentioned this topic in all my many years on this forum… so again, the language of ‘fixated on’ is incorrect.
Again, a hasty generalization that appears to always be worded as such to make debate regarding it to be beyond the pale.
Though that said, I’d imagine a lot of what americans see (if you are american, apologies if not) is likely accurate given the theological inclinations or republicans in the US.
But that doesn’t mean it is the same throughout the world.
Yes, outside the US there appears to be a lot more tolerance and deference and “live and let live”. I can only address what I know, which is the environment here in the US right now. I would point out however that the emotional and ideological valence of opposition to trans rights may be counterbalanced or repressed by other forces in other countries (as it once partially was here) but the potential for what you say is my “hasty generalization” exists everywhere. Trans is different, and so to minds that are wired as conservative – shall we say – challenging. Heck, transgender and genderfluid are relatively challenging to ME, compared to my [step]children who assume it and don’t even question it. They are used to their friend deciding on a day to day basis which gender they feel like identifying with. I am just glad I’m old, lol. But … my overarching thought is that people should be free to be authentically who they are and it’s not my job to police them. Or anyone else’s.
My oldest granddaughter is a trans woman and I know that she doesn’t do it so that she can peek at biological females in vulnerable moments, so that’s a data point I have that not everyone does.
There are different levels of belief with different levels of provisionality. If my granddaughter tells me she was tormented by the inauthenticity of what she experienced as posing as a male when she’s not, then I accept that this is her experience. I don’t necessarily have to accept that she couldn’t have handled it differently, or at least tried to. It’s none of my business. I also observe that she’s not harming anyone by being who she’s comfortable being.
This is the sense in which I afford belief to people describing their own experience, rather than projecting my experiences or internal state onto THEM. The only source of info I have about what they feel and experience and what it’s like to be them, is them telling me.
I also have a personal “thing” about people telling me what I think or feel (or should) and not believing me when I talk about my own experience, which probably colors this. My first wife was always gaslighting me about my motives, motivations and purposes that had nothing to do whatsoever with what was actually going on in my head, and then refusing to believe my testimony on the matter – literally the only testimony admissible for consideration. So I tend to approach other people soliciting their experiences and feelings and accepting them as true at least for them at face value. That doesn’t mean I assume they aren’t in any way mistaken or that what they choose to do with it is optimal.
I massively respect this, I appreciated the honesty.
And like you my fiancées nephew (previously, niece) is a trans man. He was born biologically female but identifies as male now and has requested we call him by his new name and use he/him pronouns.
I have zero issue with that and we literally had him over in september for our youngests 3rd birthday and had a blast.
I have zero issue with trans people, nor gays, even theists (providing the latter keep it to themselves).
I would urge caution in “not questioning it”, we should question absolutely everything and this is something I install in my children, mostly in the hope that they dont get indoctrinated by theology or politically.
I can understand your point of view and respect it, I equally would respect your child or any child or person who said, they were tormented by the inauthenticity of what shes experienced.
But I think that is more of an empathetic agreement rather then believing it to be fact.
Which I’d salute you for, we should all be kind and respectful, which ironically goes to my original point.
Again, I respect this.
For me though, I’m fine providing I’m not told that something is a fact when it clearly isn’t.
It’s like listening to that gobshite speed talking muppet Ben Shapiro, “ohhh but we have objective morality given by god”
Prove it!
Then you say, well I don’t believe and the arguement back is you cannot be a good person without objective morality.
Its simply another arguement designed to push a view that isnt a fact and the resistancel to which is met with hostility
Luckily I’m too old, tired and achy to give a shit lol
But i digress, just to echo my point again but to alter the view point… if your trans daughter had trans safe space say on a college campus that is granted under law, i would respect that space…
Heck I’d respect it without it being under legislation, just out of respect… in much the same way i wouldnt dead name and try to use the correct name and pronouns.
Have we established that creating a safe space isn’t supported by the data? That there is no security problem?
I thought we had. If we haven’t, could you supply a link to the crime statistic that shows people getting assaulted in restrooms, particularly by trans people?
I’m terribly confused by your stance and want to understand it. I’m not trying to be obstinate. I honestly don’t get it.
Whose wishes?
All or just a certain percentage of wishers?
Who defines ‘single sex’? How is it defined?
How does it get enforced?
Why do some public restrooms need to be segregated and others don’t?
At what age are boys not allowed in with their mamas? Four? Six? Ten?
Do men get these safe spaces with the eviction of trans men?
Is it unsafe for men to have a trans man to go into a restroom designated for men?
What do you suppose would happen if a fully trans person entered the restroom for the sex designated on their birth certificate?
What restroom should a person who doesn’t have standard sex chromosomes use?
Is it just restrooms that are / should be single sex, safe places? Does it have something to do with how someone pees?
Do you think public restrooms are particularly unsafe places that need to have stricter rules about who can/not enter them?
Do cis folks need to be protected or segregated from trans folks anywhere else?
If there isn’t any data supporting the idea that there is a security problem in restrooms, then we aren’t really creating a safe space - we’re just making people think we are creating a safe space.
I’m confused. The second quote implies there is a need to create a safe space - that there exists data that one could create a safe space and it’s not about making people feel safer artificially.
I thought I had a migraine before all these replies lol
But yes of course I’ll clarify my position further for you CyberLN.
I was simply demonstrating that I hold multiple views and demonstrating how some are left leaning i.e. LGTB+ right, abortion rights, freedom of speech, anti gun, anti war etc…
I also stated though that I may also have view considered right leaning, i.e. I don’t think trans women should be allowed into biological womens safe spaces (toilets).
I’ve further clarified, I have no issue with trans people, I also have empathy for them and would always be respectful in using new names, pronouns and not dead naming or taking the piss.
The term ‘safe space’ I can now see is almost a loaded term and I ought to have considered a better descriptor.
I can see it may come across as if someone is unsafe, as in under threat which could be misconstrued.
So my position comes from what we have in the UK where womes toilets are considered ‘safe spaces’ or ‘protected spaces’ under the law.
This is known as the ‘equality act’ which describes ‘sex’ as a ‘protected characteristic’.
It also allows for ‘single sex services and/or facilities’.
This allows dignity, safety and hygene for the ‘protected sex’.
This was further confirmed in a recent high court case which clarified that in the equality act, ‘women’ and ‘sex’ refer to biological sex.
That said I would 100% support a bill that offered the same protections for trans people.
This isn’t because of some imminent threat, but just social decorum and being respectful.
But the over arching point is when I discuss this point, I’m viewed as right wing, despite the fact I don’t believe in left vs right and my political inclinations vary but I would say are 90% left leaning.
The second quote was in reply to what you claimed I had said, which was a strawman of my arguement.
I’ve never once said anything about trans people committing violence and I haven’t implied it, I believe you have infered it that way, but that is incorrect.